Fresh stuff from sukhoi.ru (Discussion) - Page 164

adonys · #**1631** 05-31-2012, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klem

A number of interesting and competing points here and I'd just like to pick up on a couple.

To those that don't think MMO has much to offer I'd say, as an ex Air Warrior and Aces High player, that to take part in a properly organised scenario with say 400 others, assigned to units, planned on a historical scale, briefed, comm'd and organised etc in a historical action like BoB, Pearl Harbour or Big Week creates a level of immersion you just don't get in IL-2 1946 or CoD. Whilst the latter may (will?) have FMs, graphics etc down pat they don't offer that immersion and the feeling of (almost) "being there". Unless you taken part in one of those scenarios and felt the hairs stand up on the back of your neck you may not understand. But that is what many of the more serious WWII simmers want, something to take them deeper into that era and experience. All we get in CoD is a shallow world of a few small time combats and a few small formation intercepts. In IL-2'46 you may also have more objective based maps and some DGEN campaigns but no real scale to them. Just a few squadrons before hitting the 128 limit or more likely about 80. Stop and think. CoD can never really deliver even one typical day in the BoB because it can't support even 400+ aircraft at one time. CoD doesn't deliver the BoB. It needs to be taken to another level or it remains just a few aircraft dogfighting or bombing or the occasional small scale raid scenario. Before someone shouts 'MMO? ping, packets, bandwidth, impossible' that's for the devs to work out and the broadband companies to deliver on as many of them are now. And the next cry, 'we can't get more than 1Mb BB, I can't afford a PC to run it', I'm sorry but you can't expect to run this stuff at that level without the kit and yes that's another squeeze on the market which is why the mass market, arcade, low data bandwidth is important to make what we want on the side viable. What was that? That kind of technology split isn't viable? Look at that i-phone in your hand. Think back ten years.

Regarding 'the kids'. You either want realism and the commitment to learning it demands or you want arcade. Take a look around at the guys you know playing IL-2 '46 and CoD. I bet most of them aren't kids but they were 10 or 15 years ago when they didn't have the patience for sims like IL-2 and played Mario instead. Only a percentage of them even now have the patience for IL-2/CoD which is why 'realism' is a niche market. So what do 1C do to survive? They have to offer to the mass market, the kids, hopefully to be able to support the niche realism market (which is probably where their hearts as aviation sim developers lie). So bring on a MMO with both arcade and full switch settings, different bandwidth demands and servers to support them (Aces High has - had? - different realism levels on their servers).

Pay a monthly subscription? If it captures the arcade market too it should be cheap enough for what you get back. £10/$15 a month? Thats a couple of Big Macs, Fries and a drink and lasts 30 days instead of 15 minutes. Of course the run of the mill play will be set by the server managers but the opportunity for the community to have access to the server and plan and organise large scale special events will give those planners a new world to work with.

Considering MMO business models:
Free DLC? OK if its 'earned' by some kind of server tracked 'career' points.
Paid DLC to 'Buy what you've earned'? Perhaps if its not expensive.
Buy to Win? Absolutely not in the 'realistic' model. Of course in the Arcade model.

But can 1C regularly deliver 'new' content for the arcade players and keep the cash coming in?

That's exactly why War Thunder MUST be seen as serious competition by 1C. Because I think people will migrate in there in mass after launch. The graphics are not bad at all, the FM's are not totally arcadish, and the feeling of being there is right there!

Feathered_IV · #**1632** 06-01-2012, 01:04 AM

I miss Tree. I'd like to hear his take on all this.

Hooves · #**1633** 06-01-2012, 03:39 AM

Well to weigh in on this MMO conversation. I am a beta tester for War Thunder, and it IS arcade mode.......for now. However, when played in the cockpit, it is as rewarding as anything I have experienced in CoD. I am taking the game modes with a grain of salt in anticipation of the editor, dynamic campaigns and large scale war that will also offer tank and ship battles (you will be able to control them individualy). The FM's feel ok, the complexity is about at the level of Wings of Prey, or 1946.

Thats about all I can say about it due to the NDA, but I can tell you I have never CTD'd out of a session. The game runs incredibly smooth. Those two things alone have me playing it more than CoD.

Lots of people love to rank up (Im not one of them TBH) but it does keep you coming back to try and edge in a few more points. We'll have to see how they other game modes are managed (full real historic battles) but over all I would not count WT WOP out just yet.

hiro · #**1634** 06-01-2012, 04:34 AM

I don't think the twin MMO (thunder and WOW planes

will challenge IL-2 BOB/CLOD and its successors (once the bugs are fixed) or DCS p-51

The level of detail is greater and those engines (dcs and CLOD) are better than the old IL-2 1946 (which thunder has and WOWP will probably copy)

Also the type of flyer one will cater to is different. Thunder and WOWP will be for the gamer set, who probably have a mmorpg account, dabble in Call of Duty series games, have a console, while CLOD and DCS will be for the simmers.

I'm glad WOWP and Thunder are out. If they get the air / ground / sea epic action feel down, it will motivate Il-2 devs to get the same in their game (while retaining the sim feel of the game)

I think its good, because the more then genre is out there, the more developers willing to take a chance at making a great ww2 flight sim. Heck it may even return to the golden age of simming where we had lots to chose from.

Someone mentioned the devs don't have a direction in the game. They do. Look back to IL-2 1946's and the roadmap is similar (note I didn't say the same). One aspect is making it close as a sim as possible (given restrictions of hardware / software) regarding details. Then the other is releasing new plane sets / vehicles / theater of operations per iteration of game until all of WW 2 and Korea are covered.

It's just the complexity and issues are much to handle, and they are doing the best they can.

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Just some notes about MMO's . . .

one of the main problem with cash cow MMO's is the more cash is flowing in, the more the game approaches the radar of hackers and cheaters.

I remember in Il-2 people could spot cheaters really easily, and since alot of vets knew how certain planes flew / handled / weaponry etc.

But in mmo's with lots of accounts and servers, the cat and mouse game usually ends up the haxors playing the cat.

MMORGP's is a fact. Take WOW (world of warcraft), Blizzard rakes in millions and they have teams dedicated to catching cheaters. But cheating happens, and alot of it has to do with the guys/gals used to catch cheaters or help the players (game / dungeon master role) as they tend to pass code / help out friends.

The game code is very mature, so the devs know all aspects of it and the new guys taking over, will have documentation out of their ears to figure something out. But the thing is, exploits are easy because alot of non devs had managed to piece the code together over the years and also architecture wise have found certain holes . . .

The game is based on a simulated dice roll, and I got lucky and got included in a guild where they had game hacks to always get the top % of their rolls. The game got easy and very boring afterwards. It was fun at first, being like Neo in the Matrix but it got boring.

WOWP and Thunder doesn't have the $$ and manpower blizzard has, and so their defenses against hacking will have lot less resources.

Il-2 was able to get away because the community usually played watchdog. the problem with MMO's is the community is more fragmented due to the size . . . .

Another thing . . .

I'm wondering how they handle the complexity. Will they take IL-2's route, where more complex engine handling and skill at engine management and things like trim, will allow an edge over some that has arcade settings?

Also the balance factor, they say experten and newbs will be in the same scenario. Strangely enough if someone has wonder woman view vs full on, even experten in full on will find it harder if intermediates have wonder woman?

Then there's the experience points, so say someone racks up tons of exp, he's an expert right? So that means he only gets full CEM and full cockpit only . . .

Also usually MMO's need to keep the guys playing for a long time, and if they have people needing massive points to slowly unlock all the planets or play though campaigns to unlock planes that take forever (and keep them on their monthly tab) people will lose interest.

Or if heavily experienced they get "rpg" (role playing game bonus) like if flying through fog, they can see further, or cross wind landings affect them less etc . .. they get more hits on gun fire (provided both are shooting correctly according to ww2 standards and deflection and convergence equal to a not experienced game wise, player) etc

but then you'll have uber super players, and that's the inherent problem of the rpg aspect.

If people play MMO style games for a long time they expect to get rewarded for it . . . and this can unbalance things.

It's just easier to CLOD and IL-2 style, then its just a matter of skill.

Volksieg · #**1635** 06-01-2012, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hiro

Also the type of flyer one will cater to is different. Thunder and WOWP will be for the gamer set, who probably have a mmorpg account, dabble in Call of Duty series games, have a console, while CLOD and DCS will be for the simmers.

Not a gripe at your post at all, Hiro... just an observation. lol

I've noticed that some people seem to think that one can either be a gamer or a simmer.

I used to play EVE and Warhammer Online, I have dabbled in Call of Duty and enjoyed it thoroughly, I have all three of the current games consoles............. and I also love a realistic simulator.

We are out there, you know!

Though it has to be said..... flying CloD has totally ruined all my other, more arcadey, flight games.