Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

I have asked David (Glider) a couple of times to post the papers, but he is appearantly not so willing to publicly anything else than the crops he has posted so far.

I can post you those if you want.

For the record 'those crops' as Kurfurst so describes the paper are the only part of those meetings that dealt with the purchase, storage and distribution of 100 Octane fuel and Kurfurst is aware of this. It isn't a case of being unwilling, its a case of there is nothing more of relavence.

He expesses doubt but has had ample time to obtain copies himself to prove it one way or the other.

I am pleased that he has finally posted the papers available which show the trail in context rather that emphasising one paper.

[Kurfürst]

Like I said, he is not very willing to show anything but crops.

He DOES insist every time to see the full papers I use to post though, and as I recall he seen them in full every time.

Originally Posted by Glider

I am pleased that he has finally posted the papers available which show the trail in context rather that emphasising one paper.

Indeed.

"At the last meeting A.M.S.O. referred to a proposal that certain Fighter and Blenheim Squadrons should begin the use of 100 octane fuel.."

Quite clear-cut isn't it.

[pstyle]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

"At the last meeting A.M.S.O. referred to a proposal that certain Fighter and Blenheim Squadrons should begin the use of 100 octane fuel.."
Quite clear-cut isn't it.

Here's my take on this "units concerned" business, working from most recent to oldest:

By May 18th, these "units concerned" has been stocked with the necessary 100 octane

Prior to May 18th. There are two separate lines of discussion.
One relates to Bomber command and the stocking/ holding of two fuel types a Blenheim statinos, mainly stations Wyton, Watton, Waattsiham and West Raynham.

Fighter command, on the other hand was also subject to the same "proposal" that "certain units" should "begin to use 100 octane". There was some discussion about whether or not the existing spitfires and hurricanes could actually convert to the 100 fuel without substantial modifications. However, this concern was proved unfounded. They could use the 100 fuel.

So who are these "certain units"?
Well, as Talisman identifies in his post above, these "certain units" are the "squadrons armed with fighters and Blenheims" as specified by Assistant Chief of the Air Staff - who sits ABOVE both fighter and bomber command, which is why, form the overall RAF perspective this refers to "certain units", and not ALL units.

I think it's entirely fair to suggest, that from the perspective of fighter command, this referred to ALL fighter units.

I am in agreement with Talisman that by May 18th, all of these "units concerned" were using 100 Octane. And that their Spitfires and Hurricanes could use the fuel WITHOUT considerable modification, as per the statement of Mr Tweedie, at the May 1940 meeting.

There is a sting in the tail though, while the Spits/Hurris could use the 100, they would not get the performance benefit until the modifications had occurred to each individual aircraft.

[Crumpp]

these "certain units"

And why do you think it does not refer to the original 16 squadrons?

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

And why do you think it does not refer to the original 16 squadrons?

Name these 16 original squadrons.

[pstyle]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

And why do you think it does not refer to the original 16 squadrons?

Which "original 16"?
Who identifies these "original 16". I've not seen this bit yet (it might be too far back in the thread).. I'd happily accept a fresh link, if you'd oblige.

Assuming it were only these 16 (none of which I can find), if say, one of these 16 (as yet unidentified) squadrons was based at at a station with other units not in the 16, would that station have had both fuels?

[lane]

Originally Posted by pstyle

Which "original 16"?
Who identifies these "original 16". I've not seen this bit yet (it might be too far back in the thread).. I'd happily accept a fresh link, if you'd oblige.

Assuming it were only these 16 (none of which I can find), if say, one of these 16 (as yet unidentified) squadrons was based at at a station with other units not in the 16, would that station have had both fuels?

One possibility as to which squadrons comprised the 16; at the time of the March 1939 planning memo calling for 100 octane to be brought into use by 16 squadrons, 15 squadrons were operational with Spitfires or Hurricanes, with 3 others in the process of forming or converting. The units are as follows:

Mar-39
Sqdn Base Aircraft
1 Tangmere Hurricane
19 Duxford Spitfire
32 Biggin Hill Hurricane
41 Catterick Spitfire
43 Tangmere Hurricane
46 Digby Hurricane Converting from Gauntlets March 39
54 Hornchurch Spitfire Converting from Gladiator March 39
56 North Weald Hurricane
66 Duxford Spitfire
73 Digby Hurricane
74 Hornchurch Spitfire
79 Biggin Hill Hurricane
85 Debden Hurricane
87 Debden Hurricane
111 Northolt Hurricane
151 North Weald Hurricane
213 Wittering Hurricane
501 Filton Hurricane Forming with Hurricanes in March 39

One can see from the following listing that many units had converted prior to the Battle of Britain

111 Squadron ORB 15 February 1940
151 Squadron ORB, 16 February 1940
602 Squadron ORB, 16 February 1940
611 Squadron ORB, March 1940
74 Squadron, March 1940
100 Octane Fuel - Issue of., 12th December, 1939
A.P.1590B/J.2-W, Merlin II and III--Use of +12 lb./sq.in. Boost Pressure--Alterations, 20 March 1940
Emergency +12 lbs./sq. in. Boost Operation: Pilot's Notes, Merlin II, III and IV, 4th Edition, April 1940, page 6.
Air Chief Marshal H.C.T. Dowding, Handling of Merlin in Hurricane, Spitfire and Defiant Aircraft, 1st August, 1940

56 Squadron Combat Report, 9 May 1940: twelve boost
S/L J. O. W. Oliver, 85 Squadron, 10 May 1940: pulled the plug
F/O Paul Richey, 1 Squadron, 11 May 1940: boost-override pulled
F/O E. J. Kain, 73 Squadron, 14 May 1940: pulling his boost cut out
P/O D. W. A. Stones, 79 Squadron, 14 May 1940: pulled out the emergency boost-plug
Sgt. R. C. Wilkinson, 3 Squadron, 14 May 1940: 12 P.S.I.
P/O R. P. Beamont, 87 Squadron, 15 May 1940: I pulled the tit'* for over-boost... *Emergency boost over-ride on the Merlin engine
P/O F. B. Sutton, 56 Squadron, 18 May 1940: I had to pull the tit... Emergency boost control giving extra power
F/Lt. I. R. Gleed, 87 Squadron, 18 May 1940: pull the tit *; a jerk as my supercharger goes up to twelve boosts
P/O John Bushell, 151 Squadron, 18 May 1940: I used full 12 lb boost (pulled the plug)
S/L E. M. Donaldon, 151 Sqdn., 18 May 1940: I pulled the plug and climbed at 10 lbs boost
F/O C. F. G. Adye, 17 Squadron, 18 May 1940: pulled emergency boost control
F/O C. F. G. Adye, 17 Squadron, 19 May 1940: pulled emergency boost
F/Lt. I. R. Gleed, 87 Squadron, 19 May 1940: Here goes with the tit. A jerk - the boost's shot up to twelve pounds
Sgt. L. H. B. Pearce, 79 Squadron, 20 May 1940: Pulled tit
P/O John Freeborn, 74 Squadron, 24 May 1940: boost cut-out
P/O Colin Gray (NZ), No. 54 Squadron, 25 May 1940: I pressed the emergency boost tit
P/O Colin Gray (NZ), No. 54 Squadron, 25 May 1940: +12 lbs.
P/O Al Deere, No. 54 Squadron, 26 May 1940: 12 boost
F/LT Brian Lane, 19 Squadron, 26 May 1940: automatic boost cut-out
F/LT Brian Lane, 19 Squadron, 26 May 1940: 12 lb. boost
Sgt. J. C. Harrison, 229 Squadron, 28 May 1940: I pulled the emergency boost
P/O K. B. McGlashan, 245 Squadron, 28 May 1940: We’d boost an extra four pounds, from eight to twelve
P/O C. M. Simpson, 229 Squadron, 29 May 1940: with boost out and pulled
P/O T. D. Welsh, 264 Squadron, 29 May 1940: pulled boost cut-out
F/Sgt. G. C. Unwin, 19 Squadron, 1 June 1940: 12 Boost
Sgt. P. Ottewill, 43 Squadron, 1 June 1940: automatic boost cut-out pulled
P/O M. P. Brown, 611 Squadron, 2 June 1940: opened the boost cut-out
F/O D. H. Watkins, 611 Squadron, 2 June 1940: emergency boost
F/Lt. John Webster, No. 41 Squadron, 19 June 1940: 12 lbs boost
F/Lt. R. G. Dutton, 145 Squadron, 1 July 1940: pulled the plug
609 Squadron

[Al Schlageter]

It should noted lane that the squadrons you list are doing so well before the Sept date so often stated by some.

[335th_GRAthos]

Originally Posted by lane

.........................................

Thanks Lane for the great job of putting things together in one post!


I am impressed by that battle report:
F/Lt. R. G. Dutton, 145 Squadron, 1 July 1940: pulled the plug
The leader went max out and it took him 5min to reach gun range (400yrds) and even then he had to stay in line behind the DO17 because even his (maxed out) speed was hardly sufficient to keep chase!
The DO-17 was reknowned to be fast but, that fast!

And then, he used up all his ammo to "slow down" the DO17 and then his No.2 made a pass and finaly his No.3 shot the DO17 down!

Interesting reading.

~S~

[pstyle]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

And why do you think it does not refer to the original 16 squadrons?

Do you agree that the "certain squadrons" are those squadrons which are referred to in the request by the ACAS?

Lets' start with establishments common ground, and work from there.