Germany did not lose the Battle of Britain

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by revi

Also amongst the German population was a strong 'denial' that there was such atrocities occurring at Aushwitz/Birkenau. Even today there are some diehards arguing this.

The American commanders made Germans from communities local to the deathcamps tour and see the carnage in the camps. They were planning for the denials, no doubt.

Sure enough, even with millions of witnesses there will always be someone to deny it ever happened.

We don't ever want to forget what happened. It will always be a stain on the conscience of nations that knew and did nothing. It is a reminder to the rest of us, the barbarism of humankind can be horrendous--- unchecked.
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Everyone is watching Myanmar, sitting on their hands and the Hunta is prohibiting help. The Hunta may just be responsible for the deaths of additonal hundreds of thousands of people for not allowing other countries to provide humanitarian aid. Yet, no one wants to engage the Hunta militarily, which is probably long overdue.

Then of course countries know if they send the aid without providing distribution of the materials the Myanmar Hunta will just make their own people pay for the aid... or die.

Is this any less worse than letting Eichman and his murders systematically exterminate people? The people will be just as dead, regardless of the method.

[brando]

"Everyone is watching Myanmar, sitting on their hands and the Hunta is prohibiting help. The Hunta may just be responsible for the deaths of additonal hundreds of thousands of people for not allowing other countries to provide humanitarian aid. Yet, no one wants to engage the Hunta militarily, which is probably long overdue...."

Whether or not anyone wants to engage the Hunta militarily is a moot point, but it's pretty clear that no nation wants to a) start another war in this region, or b) wage war against a nation that is struggling to survive the aftermath of a natural disaster. It's not as though anyone could launch a pinpoint strike that would remove the military junta without a massive amount of collateral damage among the innocent.

We're getting a long way from the Battle of Britain.

B

[Avimimus]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Then of course countries know if they send the aid without providing distribution of the materials the Myanmar Hunta will just make their own people pay for the aid... or die.

Is this any less worse than letting Eichman and his murders systematically exterminate people? The people will be just as dead, regardless of the method.

One could just as easily say that the North American obsession with having houses twice as large as those in the 1950s while we refuse to divert a small amount of our wealth to providing basic universal wellfare and primary education across the globe. Not only is it feasible to solve these problems but the inconvenience, to say the least, is much less than joining the resistance would have been for the average German. More people will die than in Burma, less (in the short term) than died in the Holocaust and they will all be just as dead. It still horrifying. So, whats your point?

What is important about the Holocaust is it shows us how easily we can do what is convenient and how easily a large part of the population (across Europe) was able to turn against a number of very small minorities and wipe them out. This is an instance that should be treated with special care, studied and taught carefully. It is also a legacy that is very much with us.

So, now that your done trolling and I'm done falling for it can we return to topic?

[Vigilant]

Good link planespotter

Terrible name for the thread though Someone is kidding themselves

[unreasonable]

Agreeing with Mr former Older, I would just like to add that there is no guarantee that the USSR would have beaten the Germans if the UK had made peace and the US never entered the war. After all, the Germans did defeat the Russian Empire in the 1914-18 War, even with the UK and France still fighting in France. Horrible conditions then eventually caused Russian military morale to collapse and social revolution.

While Stalin and the Communists were much better at repressing their population than the Tzar it is possible that a German effort unencumbered by the need to deal with UK efforts in the channel and balkans would have had just enough impetus to take Moscow, which could have caused the Soviet regime to collapse. Especially if Hitler had harnessed eastern european anti-russian nationalist feeling: as opposed to just oppressing everyone.

I am not under-rating the morale or skill of the Red Army, but the great offensives it carried out in 1943-45 would have been impossible to sustain without western aid, especially in the thousands of US made trucks needed for logistical support, (the tanks, aircraft etc less important IMHO).

So if the Luftwaffe had gained air supremacy and forced a negotiated peace on the UK guaranteeing Hitler access to middle eastern oil, is is quite possible (note I am not claiming certain) that Hitler would have succeeded in the conquest of the USSR, with who knows what consequences.

So the BoB was a vital defeat for the Germans, along with Moscow 1941 and Stalingrad, because of its strategic implications.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Avimimus

One could just as easily say that the North American obsession with having houses twice as large as those in the 1950s while we refuse to divert a small amount of our wealth to providing basic universal wellfare and primary education across the globe. Not only is it feasible to solve these problems but the inconvenience, to say the least, is much less than joining the resistance would have been for the average German. More people will die than in Burma, less (in the short term) than died in the Holocaust and they will all be just as dead. It still horrifying. So, whats your point?

What is important about the Holocaust is it shows us how easily we can do what is convenient and how easily a large part of the population (across Europe) was able to turn against a number of very small minorities and wipe them out. This is an instance that should be treated with special care, studied and taught carefully. It is also a legacy that is very much with us.

So, now that your done trolling and I'm done falling for it can we return to topic?

Me trolling... More of the US sharing the wealth. LOL Eastern European and Soviet countries have gotten a belly full of Communism over the past 60 years. The European Union has turned Europe into one of the most prosperous regions in the world. The Euro is trading at all time highs... so maybe instead of Europeans coming to America to buy our real estate cheap they should buy up the real estate in the less prosperous regions of Europe and the ex-Soviet block countries. There are plenty of bargains there and they would be helping their fellows. The thing is... they want their investments protected and they know their investment in American real estate is protected by a legal system that will preserve their interests.

Until Europeans trust and protect each other's interests they'll keep complaining about what the US should be doing. LOL

As an American I expect to see the European Union collapse. Not because it isn't a viable concept, but because there hasn't been any lasting peace in Europe for 2,000+ years. In America, it doesn't bother us for our government to spend and vitalize areas like Montana, and Wyoming that are huge geographic areas with miniscule populations and their tax contributions are for the most part pretty well worthless in the scheme of running America. Europeans won't tolerate that kind of thing.

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What I was saying is... The Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, Czechs, Romanians, etc stood by and let the Axis armies build and run extermination camps. The people knew what was going on, are they guiltless?

Are we, the countries of the World guiltless when we know 100,000+ people will probably die in Myanmar? That is a reality. At what point do countries and organizations go beyond chit chat to do what should done?

Lame excuses about national soverignty will not save those people, Only food, medical and aid will do what is needed. The Myanmar Hunta is fearful the world might just kick their butts outta power, if they allow outside help into the country.

So... the world is going to respect the Sovereignty of the Hunta and as far as the people of Myanmar are concerned... "time to die".

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