Crusaders AD 2012

[CWMV]

Originally Posted by baronWastelan

Wow, I had no idea the term "jar heads' was still in use

Always a treat to hear from the Infantry. Hopefully this will be a topic where warriors of all nations and creeds can post freely.

Oh ya! Actually its the nicest way I can think to refer to marines...

+1 on the rest of that too.

[Igo kyu]

The crusades were a Christian jihad, no more, no less.

[Artist]

CWMV, AndyJWest,

you're not discussing the same matter.

AndyJWest: CWMV is right when it comes down to fighting.
CWMV: Andy is correct when your getting into conflict between your oath and a government turned not only immoral but evil (i.e. in my country between 1933 and 1945 - heartfelt thanks to your ancestors for rescuing us from it, btw.): What do you do when you're ordered to commit atrocities (like German soldiers were then)?

Artist

[CWMV]

Ah I see.
Well the thing of it is that this sort of thing happens so infrequently that I Didn't consider it.
US soldiers have the right to refuse to follow an unlawful order.
But ultimately its not up to you to decide. If you refuse such an order you'll be detained and court marshaled. Then your superiors will decide if the order was unlawful or not.
But again, this sort of thing happens so infrequently that its not really worth consideration. The vast, overwhelming majority of soldiers will never receive an unlawful order.
And it doesnt bear much on the subject of the thread. Not much to do with unit symbology/tradition and esprit de corps.

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

The crusades were a Christian jihad, no more, no less.

I disagree.

[AndyJWest]

"I, ----- do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Yup. The words may well be 'close to Holy' to you, CWMV. That people can evoke religion to justify acts they would otherwise not engage in is one reason I am an atheist. As for "You don't serve your country, in the military anyway, by questioning orders", how do you think the United States came into existance in the first place?

[CWMV]

By civilians questioning the status quo, raising an Army, and that army following its orders to fight.

It is the civilian populations responsibility to make things as they want them to be by observing the world around them and having their elected representatives act accordingly.
A soldier does not do such things. He is a tool of the people he represents. Of course he may have his own opinion, but it doesn't matter when his people tell him to march.
So if you don't like the war your country is in, don't blame the guys fighting it, blame yourself for electing the men that told the soldiers to march.
Remember-public servants-we serve the will of the public.

Oh and don't throw the religion thing around, its pointless and your not the only atheist here.

[AndyJWest]

don't throw the religion thing around

Given that you compare yourself to a Crusader, and present an oath of allegiance as 'holy', I think it is you that is 'throwing the religion thing around. As for ' electing the men that told the soldiers to march', I didn't vote for the men who gave orders for an invasion of Iraq based on a pack of lies.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by CWMV

I disagree.

From the point of view of the crusaders, it wasn't a war for God against evil?

We can argue about whether people who think like that are deluded, but I do believe that's what was and is thought by crusaders and jihadists.