109 elevator trim

[robtek]

Yes, we are missing the physical feedback, lucky us!!

[Crumpp]

A trim wheel set up like the Bf-109 or Spitfires is generally very intuitive and precise.

For some reason cranks, like the P47 series are the exact opposite. Every aircraft I have flown with a crank style trim feels mushy and takes longer to get in trim.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by BGs_Ricky

So I guess that in game whe can quicky apply full trim at high speed we shoild also feel quite some effect on the pilot and airframe.

Surely pilots would adjust trim even in a fight, but generally you apply trim in small amounts, you rarely put full trim at once except if your live is really depending on it, when pulling out of a dive for example...

I agree completely, BGs_Ricky. This is part of a bigger issue that is leading to virtual pilots doing things that were not possible to real life guys - no black out for the pilot, no structural damage for the aircraft etc. And that is certainly not 'right' in a simulator I guess.

There is some 109-related information on this page:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/

Search for 'trim' as a keyword, quite interesting in many aspects.

[Widow17]

Originally Posted by 335th_GRAthos

Summarizing:
If your joystick axis pots are crap,
if you do not know how to setup the axis movement in the game,
if you do not know how to handle the joystick in order to ensure a nice smooth flying
then you better use the elevator trim....

...or just learn to fly


~S~

usually a trim just moves the elevator -as far as i know in a 109 (and some others) it moves the whole STABILIZER, so i think something different happens to what you just do with your stick

[Crumpp]

usually a trim just moves the elevator -as far as i know in a 109 (and some others) it moves the whole STABILIZER, so i think something different happens to what you just do with your stick

Moving the whole stabilizer just means the trim system has more control surface area to work with. That means the less movement of the control surface is required to gain the same amount of force when compared to a tab type control surface.


I would not take the static display museum film of some unknown guy working the controls of some unknown condition aircraft as the standard for timing. That thing is kind of a joke actually.

I can send you a film working a Mooney Manual Gear System and you would think it was impossible to do in the air. All I have to do is just casually work the controls. Reality is the system is very simple and much quicker than most hydraulic gear. You don't casually work then either, you are pretty busy on final and don't have time to waste.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Moving the whole stabilizer just means the trim system has more control surface area to work with. That means the less movement of the control surface is required to gain the same amount of force when compared to a tab type control surface.


I would not take the static display museum film of some unknown guy working the controls of some unknown condition aircraft as the standard for timing. That thing is kind of a joke actually.

I can send you a film working a Mooney Manual Gear System and you would think it was impossible to do in the air. All I have to do is just casually work the controls. Reality is the system is very simple and much quicker than most hydraulic gear. You don't casually work then either, you are pretty busy on final and don't have time to waste.

That must be the reason I find it touchy, I must be giving too many degree's to soon, I will try timing my input better...as far as the aircraft having any advantage over RL use of the trim, I don't think so. I imagine that it all boils down to just better pilots online, who are skilled with the 109 and her strong points.

[Osprey]

I don't care how skilled they are or aren't. The issue is one of "was it realistically possible?". Obviously trim was regularly adjusted before certain actions were taken, such as dives, but this is different to making 2 or 3 degrees of movement inside 2 seconds whilst in the dive itself. From what I've read so far it appears that the trim adjustment is too fast compared with real life, therefore historically inaccurate.

@Crump. You do seem to dismiss things unless it is absolutely proven to you, possibly in the knowledge that you know that evidence to the level you require is not possible. This is why we use deduction, common sense and trim off the extreme viewpoints to gain a sensible perspective on the situation. To be honest mate, I'm not sure you are able to contribute anything to any discussion involving history because of this approach, and this becomes harder as less is known and greater speculation is required because it would never be possible to satisfy your requirements.
I ask you, since you play devils advocate for this discussion, do you hold the belief that what we have now is correct? According to your logic it cannot be.

[robtek]

I believe OM and his team have spent more time evaluating the timing of the trim wheel than we did/do here and the 5 to 6 seconds we have now didn't come out of thin air.

Imo it would be feasible in that time frame, but that is irrelevant, as the actual change is not the full range anyway.

That would mean we are talking about a imagined (imo) "advantage" of a few tenths of a second while actuating the trim and thereby drastically reducing the advantages in the following fight after the first seconds.

This discussion would be interesting if we had somehow corrected and validated FM's, which we dont have, rendering the discussion at this time senseless.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by robtek

I believe OM and his team have spent more time evaluating the timing of the trim wheel than we did/do here and the 5 to 6 seconds we have now didn't come out of thin air.

Oh yes there are no bugs whatsoever in this sim

[robtek]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Oh yes there are no bugs whatsoever in this sim

If you really believe that you might need a reality check.

A few bugs dont devalue the rest!