Why no E4s

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Hey listen, sorry you took it as an insult.

But I'm not going to retract the statement. I find it hypocritical to understate the advantages that the spit 2a has over the 109s, while in the same breath overstate the advantages that the 109s have over the Spit 1a and Hurri, and to neglect entirely the advantages that the Hurri and Spit 1a have over the 109s.

If you're interested in actually addressing the facts, then great.

Should the E-3 be banned? It climbs better than the E-4.

What will happen when Blue gets the Fw 190 and Red again has a turn advantage but not a speed or firepower advantage?

Fair enough. We're all grown men here.

As I see it right now with the current FM's, if any model of 109 meets a Spit I/Ia or Hurricane DH5-20/Rotol in a 1 v 1 with both pilots having equal ability; the 109 will win because it can hold the initiative in the fight. It will climb above its quarry, the Red fighter will stall first if it tries to match it. The 109 can b & z at will, the Red fighter can only turn to avoid the firing pass. It can't outrun or outdive the 109, it's only a matter of time when the 109, diving out of the sun, will hit the Red fighter and win the fight. No 109 pilot in his right mind will engage a Red fighter in a turn & burn fight. Why would he? He just climbs out of reach, then picks his moment to descend and dispatch the RAF fighter turning below. The best the RAF fighter can do is dodge the tracers best he can until the 109 runs out of ammo -- which takes a lot longer than it does for a Spit or Hurri to run out.

Obviously, the Spitfire IIa is very capable of seizing the initiative in a 1 v 1, again assuming both pilots are of equal ability. I've recently done some flight test comparisons of the IIa vs the 1a, Rotol, and DH-520 in full throttle climbs to 10,000 feet and also some energy-loss comparos executing Immelman turns in the IIa, Ia, and Rotol. I posted the results over at the ATAG Forum, including video clips of the Immelman tests. Jeffrey Quill I ain't, but as expected the IIa outperformed the other models decisively, especially in the full throttle climbs. We were surprised (Red and Blue) that there was a such a large loss of energy in the IIa doing the Immelman -- on par with the Rotol. The conclusion was that the IIa is good, but its wings aren't coated in teflon. A good 109 pilot can defeat a mediocre IIa pilot, just as a good Ia pilot can defeat a mediocre 109 pilot in a 1 v 1 encounter.

What the Red pilots see in the IIa is "Finally, we have a fighter that can turn the tables". So many times a Red pilot is in a 1 v 1 co-energy encounter, only to have the 109 raise its nose, climb hard away, then hammerhead in the sun and dive back down with guns blazing. When Blue pilots respond by saying "Don't play into the 109's game; disengage, grab altitude yourself, then come back and do it to the 109". To which the Red pilots reply, "No....give us Spitfire IIa's and YOU disengage, grab some alt, and come back at us".

And so it goes.

But as MajorBorris pointed out to Ritchie earlier in this thread, the arguing will never end, it will just get more acrimonius. Taking out the E4 and IIa has seemed to even things up a bit. The Rotol, if flown well, is a good opponent to all models of the 109, the Ia struggles a bit. I'm aware that the auto-pitch on the E4 is over-hyped and that experten 109 pilots probably stick with manual pitch control for top performance. The perception on the Red side, rightly or wrongly, is that the auto-pitch turns even noob Blue pilots into aces overnight. I'm sure they wish that were true! Perhaps a greater concern was that the E4 uber-cannon could knock down a Blenheim before the Blennie had a chance to line up its target.

Sorry for the wall of words here. As with everyone, waiting on the patch to see what that brings us.

Past differences aside, good flying and look foward to seeing you over the Channel.

Snapper