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IL-2 Sturmovik The famous combat flight simulator.

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  #101  
Old 04-03-2008, 02:40 PM
Feuerfalke Feuerfalke is offline
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Originally Posted by tater View Post
csThor, the primary mapping tool is called the FMB. Really. It is turned on with no hacking/modding, either. YOU have altered the file used to change it to the tool, I'm certain (assuming you have "hacked" your conf.ini by changing anything).

Actually, for 3d parties, another primary tool (aside from Adobe Photoshop) are the tools to extract Space Shuttle Radar Topography Mission data (not at all related to il-2, and free to all).

tater
The conf.ini is not a protected file, so you cannot hack it or crack it. You can modifiy it at best. Same is for missions. As those are created with the mission editor with locked objects and maps, it is not needed to remove file-encryption or protection-measures to create new missions or change them. For protected missions, that is something different again, but you cannot do that with unmodified editors.
  #102  
Old 04-03-2008, 02:45 PM
tater tater is offline
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BTW, I think that the guys who are primarily interested in the PTO or Med, are probably somewhat "evangelical" regarding new maps for the simple reason that very few existed (Med), or very few were good/useful (PTO). As a result, they are excited, and want to share.

I don't think it's out of any sense of superiority, or that "only real simmers play with X, Y, and Z." It's wanting to share something they think is a good thing with others that might enjoy it.

Don't assume malice where it's likely exactly the opposite.

<S>

tater

PS, Feuerfalke, csThor suggested that there was some special map tool that was hacked from someone else to make maps. I was merely pointing out that this is not true, and the FMB is in fact the primary map tool. Not just for placing buildings, for placing terrains, making hills, and so forth. I know the conf.ini is not protected, I was making a joke since all that is required to enable map-building is a few changes to that file. (USING the changes is another matter entirely, but I was only discussing the tool to do so).

Last edited by tater; 04-03-2008 at 02:51 PM.
  #103  
Old 04-03-2008, 03:01 PM
LEXX LEXX is offline
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csThor::
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However you infered that people who do not use mods are not "true" simmers in a very underhanded way.
Perhaps I did, and if so I was sloppy as usual.

For the record, a true Online play community, whether they use mods or not, is a group of people that does not fall apart in anger over something as inanimate and non-living as little mods in a little computer game. This is what a social community is all about.
  #104  
Old 04-03-2008, 03:19 PM
tater tater is offline
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Ideally there would be a solution that would allow both worlds to (happily) coexist (like the ability to fully "lock" a version).

Locking a certain version is fine up to a point, but I have to say that having to fly stock Pacific maps to be online would be a major downgrade. I'd rather pick people more carefully to fly with, and have the best of both worlds.


tater
  #105  
Old 04-03-2008, 03:22 PM
Feuerfalke Feuerfalke is offline
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Originally Posted by tater View Post
Ideally there would be a solution that would allow both worlds to (happily) coexist (like the ability to fully "lock" a version).

Locking a certain version is fine up to a point, but I have to say that having to fly stock Pacific maps to be online would be a major downgrade. I'd rather pick people more carefully to fly with, and have the best of both worlds.


tater
Yeah, but the bad thing is, we don't have that choice.
  #106  
Old 04-03-2008, 03:23 PM
LEXX LEXX is offline
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Feuerfalke::
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LEXX, I really wonder how you know all these details if you don't play online. Some things from the social street-life just don't transfer into computer business.
Hi Falke. I'll take the two items in turn.

I know these details from (1) hearing about snotty gamer behavior in anonymous public servers and (2) having myself seen for years many of the "leading" anonymous public server computer gamers attack and insult Oleg's paying customers who only asked for either some additional modding abilities or for Oleg not to cripple his sim to prevent "cheating" -- an example is crippling the flight models for non-slider users by slowing elevator trim. This snotty anti-social computer gamer behavior seen among even "old timer" anonymous public server gamers is one reason so many Online players either go back to Offline play, retreat to private servers, or leave the sim entirely.

Social street-life may or may not transfer to computer business, but it translates directly to social interaction among Online players. Online players have always advertised that human vs human gameplay is superior to Offline play against the AI. Why? Because when played Online, the sim becomes real life social interaction, and not just a simulation anymore. Online play can add the only true hint of reality to a sim -- social interaction.

The flip side is that many anonymous public server players, after advertising that social interaction is the prime mover of Online play, refuse to admit that Online cheating is a social behavior that can only be consistently avoided through social awareness. When you play with society, you take risks, risks that some here don't want to talk about, so they blame the mods, or the modders and happy mod users, but never blame the cheaters since they can't find them. Somebody has to take the blame.
  #107  
Old 04-03-2008, 03:50 PM
tater tater is offline
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While community is one (important) aspect of online play, it is far more than that, lexx.

The AI is pretty crappy, frankly. The reason it's better to play vs people is that people are both better AND worse than AI in important ways. They have real LOS issues, so you can actually surprise them (well, if the idiotic ability to hear anything but your own motor was removed). When you get in a real fight, they are not predictable (except maybe their target-fixation).

Even a few human players mixed among the AI (coop) makes a huge difference because the automatic tendency to fly vs AI in a way you know will win becomes ineffective... we all do it offline, it becomes habit. You KNOW a shallow turn will throw off the AI, they'll waste all their ammo astern of you. Try that vs a person, lol. If you know that even ONE of the AI is not AI, but real, you cannot do that behavior.
  #108  
Old 04-03-2008, 04:02 PM
LEXX LEXX is offline
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Well yes, those are more technical aspects of social interaction I had in mind. Thanks for brining them up though tater, especially the mixing of multiple humans and AI together. One good one that I think I maybe might have possibly heard about being used Online is pretending to fly like AI, sucking in any opposing humoid player to a nice surprise.
  #109  
Old 04-03-2008, 04:12 PM
csThor csThor is offline
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Lexx - *holds out hand to shake* Your post cleared it up. The matter is settled from my side.

tater - The problem with humans is simply that they're (we're!) playing this game for enjoyment. And this means noone likes to be on the receiving end of a fighter's weapons and/or flying an aircraft that cannot defend itself or is an easy picking, which does stuff that's boring or unpopular. This results in a flurry of "adjustments":

- servers go for pure fighter vs fighter engagements
- planesets are being doctored to keep certain "groups" happy
- historical facts are being thrown out of the window for "player's convenience"

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The result of all of this is the extreme number of fighters and fighter-bombers compared to other aircraft classes as the Stukas, the bombers or dedicated ground-pounders (such as the namesake of the series). You don't see swarms of gunner-less Il-2s trying to destroy all artillery pieces in the target area on a 1942 map nor will you see a large formation of Stukas hunting tanks. These jobs are being done by fighter-bombers or destroyers because they can deal with the load of fighters and do not take that long to reach the target zone. The issue here is that people are unwilling to venture off the beaten tracks, even on so-called "historical servers". This is the primary reason why SoW will need to combine the strengths of the dedicated dogfight server with the ability of the COOPs to have moving AI units (aircraft and ground/sea objects) - to overcome the insane fighter and dogfight fixation. Otherwise it's always going to remain "Quake in the air" as opposed to a simulation of aerial warfare in WW2. You can't change the people - you have to change the rules and the environment.
  #110  
Old 04-03-2008, 04:14 PM
Feuerfalke Feuerfalke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEXX View Post
Feuerfalke::
The flip side is that many anonymous public server players, after advertising that social interaction is the prime mover of Online play, refuse to admit that Online cheating is a social behavior that can only be consistently avoided through social awareness. When you play with society, you take risks, risks that some here don't want to talk about, so they blame the mods, or the modders and happy mod users, but never blame the cheaters since they can't find them. Somebody has to take the blame.
And I think that is the problem here. Nobody blames the modders of anything except their behavior towards Oleg and his team, which has become very obvious several times in this thread and for cracking a protected game and making this crack officially available. That is against the law, that is unfair and it is wrong.

But you have to admit (and already did) that cheating is a problem and that we wouldn't have that problem, if this whole thing hadn't become much larger than most expected.
And when I speak of online-cheating, I do not talking about the "3 or 4" bohoo-hidden top secret servers for pay-for-play registered members only. We're talking about these "100" baddy worn-out-ugly-dirty servers on Hyperlobby, ASE and UBI. You cannot control who's joining and you cannot know everybody online, as well as you cannot really ban them effectively. So, this whole social control thing simply doesn't apply. The same way you cannot check everybodies pockets going down your street.
And the problem is not, that I'm feeling cheated everyday, but because it's in the minds of people you play with.
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