The MOD mentality....

[Jumoschwanz]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

The sim is modded and has been that way for at least the past 5 years, and will be that way from here on out therefore to even debate mods is a waste of time.

Well Bearcat then why don't you take that advice and quit participating in something foolish? Debating it? I guess you have to here because you can not BAN people here for starting threads that have critical discussion on the subject like you can at the UBI General Discussion Forum huh? That is why I am banned from the UBI forum. That is what Hitler and other Dictator's do to those with critical opinions who want to practice free speech, and it has been your choice to follow their practices......

It is worth my time to try to make sure people see my point of view, which has always been that the negative impact that non-official mods have had on the IL2 Community and the IL2 sim itself makes them not worth spending time on except for those with self-serving motives.

To some people IL2 Sturmovik is a historical flight sim, to others it is a game, to some it is a social network, and to others who enjoy making mods it is a hobby. That is all fine because IL2 can be all those things, but at times in the past members of some of those groups have put their interests forward at the expense of others.

I was just reading a statement in another thread a modder made about decreasing the armor of tanks from their historical value in UP to "maintain game balance". That is a simple personal judgement call they have made there that can not be switched off by those flying UP. This is just like WD's big tirade about how HE thinks aircraft should overheat and his personal efforts to revert the overheating back to 4.10.

True, even the official version of IL2 is a judgement call, but it is an official judgement call by it's creators or those given the authority to do so, it is as good or better a judgement call than any others out there, and it is the most important to rally around.

For five years Bearcat you have tirelessly put energy into promoting mods on the UBI forum and you have tirelessly suppressed naysayers to serve your special interest. That is odd behavior for someone who considers it a waste of time huh?

[Asheshouse]

Free speech is a right not an obligation.

[HundertneunGustav]

" That is odd behavior for someone who considers it a waste of time huh? "

I think that Bearcat has the ability to sort of "stand on the moon" and observe from a distanced, far off neutral point the pros and the cons of something. Mods, no mods...

The man might see both sides of the medal, could that be the case? choosing which side he wants depending on what he wants to do with the Program at a given time?

And, is that not, sort of, wisdom?

"True, even the official version of IL2 is a judgement call, but it is an official judgement call by it's creators or those given the authority to do so, it is as good or better a judgement call than any others out there, and it is the most important to rally around."

Negative. IMO... negative.
Over at the SAS there are a bunch of Dinosaurs ( tongue in cheek) that hold on to a 4.09 version. (with or without mods)

If the official Version is "the most important one to rally around", that would at the moment be 4.11, right?

so, are the 4.09 fans or the standard, 4.07 players making a mistake, are they veering off the right/official track, just like the modders do? For what ever their reasons are?

are the people with 4.07/4.09 + mods even worse, even further, even farther from the official path, because they lack updates AND are screwing with the files?

"The sim is modded and has been that way for at least the past 5 years, and will be that way from here on out therefore to even debate mods is a waste of time."

Thats a good sentence...
It leads to my question, an honest and innocent one:
What exactly is the aim, the goal of this topic? Besides stating your position and opinion?

Besides learning to appreciate your point of View and your arguments, i can not see how it should teach me something else.

Topics like these were common, when the whole modding thing came "to the public". I have red them when... 2007? 2008?
And never has anything been achieved, besides stating different opinions, and when the discussion derailed (not IF, more like WHEN - they almost always did) a moderator had to intervene. And that always sucks.

[HundertneunGustav]

I went back to the first post, and picked a sentence, that i felt was the center of your opinion:

"Real IL2 aces and make do with what is given to them and fly the official patches without resorting to mods, hacks or cheats."

Let me introduce you to the following. open your mind, just gimme five minutes.

Look, there is "a Dude" here... let me fetch that link... here:
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.ph...c,19365.0.html

he did a lot of work on the P-47 Loadouts.

concerning this very, very restricted topic of P-47 Loadouts, and the changes in Mission outcomes, by Bombing strafing and aerial Kills...

who is closer to the absolute truth? Ammo-wise. and ONLY about Ammo.
Is this re-shuffling of Information, the application of that info in the game, is that, as you say - a Cheat? Is it a Hack?

I am not out to pull you to the dark side. I do not want to convince you.

What i want, is to show you that not all of the modding work done is evil.

If you understand what has been changed to the P-47, if you by any chance happen to agree: these changes are not official, but, they are reasonable, you might possibly understand why Bearcat can appreciate, or tolerate Mods.

Because Storebror took a Thunderbolt, and spent some time to learn about the plane, and learn how to bring that Plane a bit closer to reality. Virtual reality.

You do not have to agree that mods are good.
But maybe you can understand that mods are not always "hacks and cheats" by intention.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by HundertneunGustav

You do not have to agree that mods are good.
But maybe you can understand that mods are not always "hacks and cheats" by intention.

Exactly ..

That is the very reason why I feel that the "debate" over mods is silly and a waste of enrrgy often, depending on the language we use any kind of reasonable discussion can be cut off at the pass by a few words. There is a post right now over @ SHQ that is a classic example of how not to try to present a case if you want it to be discussed reasonably or be taken seriously. The fact that some of the mods were quite well done .. and would fit right in with TDs mission is a bright spot and reason why for me, the very existence of TD means a brighter future for this sim. That says that there is a group of folks who will continue to make improvements and add to the sim and they won't have an agenda like some of the mod communities definitely have. The P-51 load outs could use a look as well.. That they carried rockets is well known.. but not in the stock sim..... yet. It is doable. Perhaps a lot of this stuff is already in the pipeline for TD and because they are not being paid and have lives and jobs etc . it just takes a while. That's cool.... but I see a lot of features in the totality of 4.11 ... that started out as mods from the many bi directional axii that once went in ne direction only, to some of the chages in the QMB and more ..... so the mod=evil ... or appreciation for mods=a XXXXXX who just wants to see his favorite crate fly like a banshee and rule the skies .... that does not compute, and that notion along with the angst that fosters it needs to become a thing of the past. Even if there are still JERKS running around... I would love to see the day when 90% of the features requested for this sim over the years from the mission builder upgrades to the MDS and lots more ... are all in the stock sim and many reasons to fly modded will no longer exist. There will always be some who will prefer modded, there have been cries to open the sim from day one, or those who think that they can do a better job than the stock sim .. or that the stock FMs etc are just wrong.. but I bet if given a reasonable choice .. most would prefer to fly stock.. if for no other reason than security because from where I sit it is a fat that some mod packs seem to favor certain aircraft over others.. while other mod packs seem to be more neutral and where they have tweaked a certain plane they left the stock plane untouched. American planes have always .. it seems to me .. gotten less attention. It took TD to FINALLY .. even if quietly fix the Mustangs FM.. because it is definitely more stable now in 4.11 than in any incarnation of the sim, even when it was first introduced. I read where it wasnt touched .. but it is more stable than ever. Low and slow is still a death sentence as it should be but it is much improved.

[Gabelschwanz Teufel]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

I would love to see the day when 90% of the features requested for this sim over the years from the mission builder upgrades to the MDS and lots more ... are all in the stock sim and many reasons to fly modded will no longer exist.

Agreed 100%. Widescreen support, anyone?

[Bearcat]

Who would have thought that we'd have 6DoF in the stock sim 6 years ago? Guys were asking for it .. begging for it.. hoping for it.. and now we have it Great stuff going on here..

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Just stepped in. Didn't take part in this discussion (I'm too frightened of the topic). Just have read the last few pages. Lots of good postings there IMHO.
I get the feeling, that things have settled down and going well all together during the last half year.

Wanted to tell Bearcat something...:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

It took TD to FINALLY .. even if quietly fix the Mustangs FM.. because it is definitely more stable now in 4.11 than in any incarnation of the sim, even when it was first introduced. I read where it wasnt touched .. but it is more stable than ever. Low and slow is still a death sentence as it should be but it is much improved.

We only corrected the length, that had a wrong value. Its longer now, which has influence of the calculation of the FM. A bit more stable of course.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar

Just stepped in. Didn't take part in this discussion (I'm too frightened of the topic). Just have read the last few pages. Lots of good postings there IMHO.
I get the feeling, that things have settled down and going well all together during the last half year.
Wanted to tell Bearcat something...:
We only corrected the length, that had a wrong value. Its longer now, which has influence of the calculation of the FM. A bit more stable of course.

Regardless to what was done the fact remains that you guys fixed it.. the stock aircraft is a much more stable aircraft now than it was before while retaining a lot of the twitchiness that Mustangs are famous for.. and it was obviously a flaw from the beginning that no one investigated until TD took the time to look at the facts as proven by others (thanks to mods) and after all was said and done you guys fixed it .. and for that I am very grateful..

[Jumoschwanz]

Originally Posted by HundertneunGustav

But maybe you can understand that mods are not always "hacks and cheats" by intention.

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Who would have thought that we'd have 6DoF in the stock sim 6 years ago? Guys were asking for it .. begging for it.. hoping for it.. and now we have it Great stuff going on here..

So that is a good reason because someone wanted something? A lot of people wanted Brittany Spears and Hitler but that doesn't mean they were any good or were better off getting it.

I guess I had a lot more faith and foresight in IL2 and it's creators than most people. There were right around two dozen official patches for IL2 released in ten years with tons of new aircraft and features, that was enough for me.
As soon as I heard the sim was hacked I knew it was trouble as far as splintering the community and compromising the reputation of IL2.

Before the sim was hacked a lot of individuals helped model aircraft and worked on other features of the sim through official channels working with Oleg and crew. If you want to call them hackers or modders do it, but no matter what they were Good Guys in my book.

But that was not enough for someone though. They either did not have the patience to work with the IL2 crew or they thought they could do a better job themselves. The guys who did not think about the community or working through official channels, and did not think about compromising the reputation of IL2 or splintering the community before they went on their merry ways, in my book those are the Bad Guys, and it is a pretty simple distinction between the two.

I am an old man with grey hair that was out of school before there was MTV, cell phones or IBM personal computers, so maybe I am easier entertained than younger people and have more patience and respect for things outside myself.....