4.11 - AI debugging

[Alien]

I've also noticed that AI's accuracy is way too good, it counts deflection angle just like a computer, no human has ability to make such crackshots almost head-on and with 500 knots of passing speed. That's impossible. And even a rookie level pilot can do such things. IMO, you should limit their accuracy a bit, because that's unrealistic and only 50+ kills aces have enough shooting experience to shoot in this way.

[FC99]

Originally Posted by Alien

I've also noticed that AI's accuracy is way too good, it counts deflection angle just like a computer, no human has ability to make such crackshots almost head-on and with 500 knots of passing speed. That's impossible. And even a rookie level pilot can do such things. IMO, you should limit their accuracy a bit, because that's unrealistic and only 50+ kills aces have enough shooting experience to shoot in this way.

We have spent ~3 months in tweaking AI shooting ability. I collected plenty of data and current AI shooting percentage is below best human players. Aces AI are somewhere at the very good players level.

[Alien]

OK, but rookies are above rookie human level, IMO.

[Ra'Kaan]

Originally Posted by Alien

OK, but rookies are above rookie human level, IMO.

I have to agree. Although this is not nesecarily a bad thing as it forces us to get better faster.

I do a lot of training in many aircraft in a simple mission I created with some bombers, ships, ground targets and Rookie Zeros at Guadalcanal.

Just the other day I sat on the runway and allowed the mission to proceed while flipping through the camera views to observe AI behavior / tactics / maneouvers etc. To be honest, I didn't set out to perform any tests or anything, I just sorta got caught up in the little AI drama unfolding before me.

The first thing I noticed immediatly was these little AI nuggets knew EXACTLY where to find my AI wingmates. Without missing a beat, they methodically shot down every one of my AI planes turning immediatly to the next plane no matter if it was visable, or in a position to be seen etc. They just turned into the next nearest aircraft and blew it from the sky.

Mind you, the AI planes I setup for my side are mere eyecandy and are just patroling around for ambiance and are not ordered to engage the enemy.

Once all my sides AI were downed, these supposed rookies immediately turned and bee-lined directly for my aircraft - still sitting without the engine running on the runway a few virtual miles away from them - the lead AI pumped copious amounts of lead into my aircraft making me wonder if he would ever run out of ammo (this was after he single handedly downed 6 planes) then his AI wingman failed to pull out of the dive and proceeded to crash his zero into the ground obliterating me in the process. (Kamakazi AI behavior??? LOL )

After all my squadron and myself were dead, the AI went to it's final patrol waypoint as it should.

At this point, I was laughing so hard. =)

I wished I had flipped on the flight recorder, but I guess my point is that the AI still know EXACTLY where their enemies are at all times reguardless of distance. That sounded harsh, but I mean to say, within a certain distance - I think.

I'm not critisizing, just posting my observations.

Which begs the question, do I need to rebuild my mission from scratch to enable the new AI behavior ? I assumed the AI would just fly according to their new 4.11 programming.

[Alien]

Originally Posted by Ra'Kaan

(...)do I need to rebuild my mission from scratch to enable the new AI behavior ?(...)

No, that's an absurd. You did everything just OK. My first post was to point their experience level in shooting, but your is 1000 times better! A question to Daidalos Team: how did this issue manage to get through beta-testing? I hope that it's a subject to change

PS I haven't noticed behavior like this. Maybe even the opposite of it. I made myself a mission where I flew a 109 (alone) and escorted a couple of Heinkels over MTO map. 3 Wildcats with rookie level (I wanted to test their deflection shooting more) attacked us. I dove on them, appearing just below the sun and shot one down. The other two didn't notice it, but when I attacked the second one, they both answered. That was the best combat I've ever had. At first, I tried just to damage one and rejoin bombers, but I missed him and when I was in half-way (Wildcats were about 1-2 kms behind me) I realised that they might continue their pursuit and finally get closer to the bombers. So I turned back. When I got to EFs, they took the challenge. We started to fight equally (the 2 of them, but unexperienced, against me, a killer in a 109). But I got pissed off when 1 of them shot when he was exactly above me (to the right, but I was in a turn) and with 450 kph speed RIGHT into my cockpit (HTF did the ROOKIE do this?!) and hit my leg and sight. I continued the fight, but now they had advantage, so I tried to escape (I was low on ammo - at least I thought so) by hiding in a large cloud. I made a couple of circles inside and when I got out, there was no enemy there - they flew away. So I turned to rejoin the heinkels, but then an idea appeared: now the Wildcats weren't expecting me, so I could do a fast run, kill one of them and the other one wouldn't be any problem then. So I turned into heading leading to the shore, next to the cloud. When I got there, I spotted one Wildcat circling clockwise and the other one counterclockwise (?) above him and a bit to the left. So I dove to kill the lower one. But I overshot and hit him just a few times (remember that I had no crosshairs). The other one immediately jumped on me, but I was flying faster, so I easily got to his tail and damaged him. His entire rudder got off, he also had his left wing looking like a Swiss cheese, so I thought that he was going to crash and just watched, looking out not to get suprised by the other one. But there was only the badly damaged one. After 10 mins of following, I was sure that he wasn't to crash so I dove from the direction of the sun. I had no MG rounds left, just a cannon which, as you know, has really small amount of ammo, so I ,,aimed'' carefully. I hit him with about 3 rounds and got away, watching again. He was shaking a bit more, but that was all. So I attacked again and he literally blew up, about 30 meters before my nose. I had an oil leak and several more damages. I turned to base immediateley and landed without problems. After clicking the ,,quit'' button, I was informed that I shot them all down. So the circling one had got to be killed in that ,,bad'' attack. That was really my best combat experience, thanks!

[FC99]

Originally Posted by Ra'Kaan

The first thing I noticed immediatly was these little AI nuggets knew EXACTLY where to find my AI wingmates. Without missing a beat, they methodically shot down every one of my AI planes turning immediatly to the next plane no matter if it was visable, or in a position to be seen etc. They just turned into the next nearest aircraft and blew it from the sky.

Once they find enemy flight there is nothing strange that they can locate and attack nearby planes. They must have some sort of situational awareness and ability to communicate with their friends.

Once all my sides AI were downed, these supposed rookies immediately turned and bee-lined directly for my aircraft - still sitting without the engine running on the runway a few virtual miles away from them

I'll check that, if you were distant enough they should not see you and attack you but as you were still on the ground they possibly treated you as ground target and that part of the code is not changed yet.

Originally Posted by Alien

But I got pissed off when 1 of them shot when he was exactly above me (to the right, but I was in a turn) and with 450 kph speed RIGHT into my cockpit (HTF did the ROOKIE do this?!) and hit my leg and sight.

There is no guarantee that rookies will miss all the time. Chances are that they will miss but it is also possible that they will hit you with the first bullet. Luck plays a big part in game just as in life.

In my shooting tests Rookies were scoring with only 1% of shots fired, anything less than that would be ridiculous IMO.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by FC99

I'll check that, if you were distant enough they should not see you and attack you but as you were still on the ground they possibly treated you as ground target and that part of the code is not changed yet.

I don't see anything wrong with this. One flight takes out an enemy flight over the enemy's home airfield. They've got ammo left over, so they go down to strafe before heading home. On the way down, they see an enemy plane on the runway ready to take off. That makes it an obvious, easy, priority target - exactly the sort of thing that any pilot would aim for first.

The only thing strange about the whole scenario is that the wingman crashed, but maybe not so strange if he was a rookie, more focused on keeping station and following his leader than pulling out of his dive.

[Ra'Kaan]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I don't see anything wrong with this. ...

Actually, I agree!

I really want to be sure the devs saw this in my last post -

Originally Posted by Ra'Kaan

I'm not critisizing, just posting my observations.

I am very grateful for the TD devs continued interest in making this the best sim in history!

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

The only thing strange about the whole scenario is that the wingman crashed, ...

I'm sticking with AI smart enough to "decide" to kamakazi.

[Aardvark892]

The He-111 that is torpedo capable, the H-6, will not fly a torpedo run AI routine. Using my "Torpedoes Away" QMB pack, I've tested the Axis, Airfield (Carrier) Attack (no AAA) with the Ju-88's that can carry the LT 5b and LT 5W. I set the autopilot on at mission start and watch what happens. There are no problems with the 88's.

With the exact same parameters, the 111's will not commit torpedo runs, dropping their 5b's and 5W's while flying blissfully unaware over the target carrier, in no sort of flight profile that would work at all for torpedo runs.

I've attached the QMB missions to this for your testing. There are no Bridge or Armor attack missions. For more info on this pack if you're interested:

http://www.mission4today.com/index.p...etails&id=4160

Otherwise, Exellent work on Il2 overall!

EDIT: I've discovered it's not the AI programming. It has something to do with waypoint placement. Apparently the 111's need different waypoint parameters to drop torpedoes. I'm in the middle of experimenting with it and I'll post here if I can figure out what works and why.

EDIT 2: Okay... for some reason the 111's won't use torpedoes only in QMB. I took the QMB mission, saved it as a single mission, deleted all the other flights, ships, etc. until there was just one plane and one ship. I changed nothing of the 111 H-6's waypoints or settings. It worked perfectly. The same mission in the QMB it simply doesn't work. I know that other torpedo carriers work in the QMB, like the 88's, so I'm at a loss now to explain why it's happening. I checked every flyable torpedo-able airplane in both the QMB and the single mission. Every single one of them worked in both... except for the 111's. They simply won't torpedo in the QMB.

[SPAD-1949]

Originally Posted by FC99

We have spent ~3 months in tweaking AI shooting ability. I collected plenty of data and current AI shooting percentage is below best human players. Aces AI are somewhere at the very good players level.

Well i'm not experienced with other human players, but here what I found out about AI behaviour:
Was just testing ETO from the beginning upwards and got stuck in 41 flying the 109.

Its not all of AI flewn AC that became a harder enemy, some became comparatively weaker and their fighting behaviour is generaly a bit weaker, because they have not this vast ammount of overspeed ability and no overheat problems, like before.

But you cant hide in clouds. AI can. Clouds are allways dense, when you are in pursuit and allways a little to transparent when you are pursued.
The deflection shooting of especially Hurricanes MkIIc is uncompared. If it happens that AI gets just a little window for a fire solution, it does, and it hits.
The difference of Ace to Rookie is just: The Ace will get you with the first or second round in a devastating manner, like Motor burning, Player AC torn into pieces, at least two of the controls away. Rooky just hits jou with several rounds of his first burst.
You can fight them down as long as you can avoid headons and blackouts, which, with all due respect is more or less unlikely, if you have to mess up in a flight against flight situation.
Fighting man against man will give you a 25% Chance against an ace or a 90% Chance against rookies.
I dont think AI is affected by blackouts, because they can turn very hard, witout giving much energy, even when in the bottom of a low jojo.
Then they come up for a sure kill headon, which to avoid is a little bit unlikely and cost you precious energy.

All in all its way more interesting then before, even if I have no chance finishing begun campaigns when there are to many missions against to many Hurricanes (JG27 campaigns Africa).