4.11 overheat and engine damage test results

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

Strange, i'm yet to blow up a single engine up in 4.11, despite flying co-ops in 4.11 most nights since release.

What am i doing wrong?

You're using historical flying techniques of course, you charlatan! Your kind is not welcomed here, and your common sense will not be tolerated!!!!

BURN THE WITCH!!!!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[shauncm]

Originally Posted by BadAim

You're using historical flying techniques of course, you charlatan! Your kind is not welcomed here, and your common sense will not be tolerated!!!!

BURN THE WITCH!!!!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

lol!!!


>icefire, whatever you take the time to write i will go through with a fine tooth comb. if im lucky i will find something that saves my (virtual) life one day

>whistlinggdeath, the same applies. maybe one day it will put me on your six!

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by WhistlinggDeath

It was a Grade A, superlative killing machine, as long as correctly used in a boom and zoom fashion (not that many online can do that correctly).

Lets not start yet another "P51 won the war" versus " no it didn't that was just Hollywood" thread.

Somehow those debates always deteriorate and end up in a US versus rest of the world bun fight with no connection to historical WII facts and figures on either side.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by shauncm

JtD>
i am happy that you disagree with me! it may be a personal question but what tactics do you use, how do you fly it? i would be nice to hear from someone that flies it regularly!

I fly on a server where you can expect to have at least semi-historical plane sets - contemporary planes, from the proper sides. So I don't have to take it up against Spitfires and La-7's, only against Bf 109's, Fw 190's or Ki-84's.

Generally, I only engage if I have the advantage. I disengage if I don't. The good thing about the P-51 is that it is fast, and allows you to disengage very easily in a shallow high speed dive.

Also, it is great at high altitude, so if someone wants to deny me the altitude advantage, he'll have to climb up into my playground. There I can defeat him even without an altitude advantage.

I usually fly the P-51 loaded with about 50% fuel at 90% pitch, 99% power, rads closed at higher speeds. I open the radiator for extended low speed climbs over friendly territory. I go all out when I need to run, no use in getting shot down with a brand new engine. Better to rtb with a wrecked one. My convergence is usually set to 150 .. 200.

I know the opposition very well, I fly all planes frequently. I for instance know which planes I can outdive, which I can outclimb, which altitudes I am faster at and so on. I also know that the 109 manoeuvrability sucks at high speed, and that there's no way it can follow me through high speed scissors. Listing details like that is a bit too much to do here. I can only recommend to look at data given in il-2 compare, memorise it and use it.

In most cases, I fly like IceFire already described - hit and run or B'n'Z or energy fighting, with gentle control input. I try to maintain a high speed and a good altitude. I don't blow my advantage in order to follow a bandit through a tight turn, in which I'd only black out anyway. I rather use repeated passes, and if the guy is just too good at dodging repeated passes, I'll just leave him where he is going to look for an easier target.

Most people that realise that you're not pushing things will get lazy with their defence. Also many folks have a single favourite evasive manoeuvre, which they will perform every time you show up on their six. So with every pass you do, they'll be an easier target.

And now the fun fact - the P-51 can dogfight fairly well. If you're low on fuel, it is absolutely possible to beat a 109 or a 190 in a dogfight, I've done so numerous times. You shouldn't take on a 109G-2, but G-6 and later usually works out OK, as do 190ies. You have to be aware that once you have slowed down to the 109 speed, it can regain speed and altitude quicker than you, so if you need to disengage, dive. If you instead of going into a zoom climb go into a lag pursuit mode as IceFire said, you can come down on his 6 fairly quickly again. Usually, this catches the bad guy off guard, but even if not, your speed is still superior and with combat flaps, you should have little trouble following him through a number of manoeuvres. Don't get too close, you may overshoot, and abort when you still have a chance.

Anyway, all of the above may sound as if the P-51 was a killing machine for the lone wolf, but it is not. Most of my kills I achieve when cooperating with team mates, may they want that or not. A bandit focussed on turning with someone else, easy meat. A bandit zooming up in a fight with someone else, easy meat again. A bandit recovering from an evasive manoeuvre flown to dodge someone else's attack, easy meat. A guy flying straight while chasing a team mate, easy meat. You get the picture - fast planes all are OK on their own, but _extremely_ good when flown even loosely in some sort of team work. The P-51 is no exception. And in that kind of combat, it leaves the performances of Spitfires and La-7's far behind. Dive speed, high speed manoeuvring, high speeds - that's what counts and what the P-51 is clearly better at than the other two.

[shauncm]

JtD > thanks for taking the time to write all that! i think im starting to see where the difference in flying styles is here.

it seems that both [icefire] and [jtd] fly significantly more horizontal than what whistlinggdeath describes. although you use energy tactics you stay fast. i get the impression that you keep your high yoyo's in a 45 to 60 degree plane of motion, whilst whistlinggdeath makes me think of vertical hammerhead turns when he talks about apex climbs.

icefire and jtd, you seem to fly team versus team.
whistlinggdeath, you seem to duel more.

if you know that there is only one enemy about you can afford to win the fight by holding in the vertical until the last possible moment. on a server with imperfect situational awareness this is risky.

apex climbs and hammerheads seem to be about the worst possible thing to do with an engine. your really slow for a very long time, whilst using high power levels. in a way you are stall fighting. the spitty needed very big radiators to be able to do that.

i also get the impression that you are working different height bands. the air at 20000 feet is 40 degrees celsius colder than at ground level. from what i have read IL2 models outside air temperature effects.

since 4.11 every plane is a little bit slower. there is a greater difference between peak speed and max sustained speed. from playing about offline it seems like both the tempest and spit25 are about 30 to 40 kph slower. speed is life, height is life-insurance but temperature is offensive capability.

i remember a quote;
"The engine is overheating, and so am I. Either we stand down or blow up"
i think that was from a bunch of p51's sitting on the runway waiting to take off. if the p51 overheated at idle on the runway, a power-on minimum speed apex turn is going to get hot real quick.

in a fair match any of you guys could beat me. i win online because im sneaky. i either use stealth or fool people into thinking i pose less of a threat than i actually do. i consider you all far more knowledgeable about the p51 than i am. my personal interest in this thread is because i think il2 is an incredible simulator and i want to see it keep developing. there are some modern 'simulators' that still cant model stalls, spins and sideslips properly.

i guess the questions are;
what changes are we asking for?
what suggestions do we have for the developers with regard to engine temperature?

[WhistlinggDeath]

The link below is for Swiss and Icefire (and others interested). The methodology is simple; I load up 4.11, start the QMB on the Okinawa map, start in the TA 152 H1 at 1000m of height, and fly for exactly one minute (so that the random number generator of 4.11 does not start my engine hot or cold), and then slowly ramp up power from 90% to 110% (all this on auto prop pitch) and put it into a combat dive and then semi-steep climb. I achieve overheat on a brand new fresh engine in ~15 seconds. And I am no where close to the apex of the climb or stalling.

Sorry, WTF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I just say 15 seconds. Wow !

Load it for yourself:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sy2wk0y2b2d71ca

Now Team A can quote their esoteric figures from historical manual C, while Team B quotes their figures from manual D, but in no manner, shape or form did the TA 152 (or the P51, or the FW or the, etc...) overheat a brand new engine in 15 seconds in a dive.

Now, repeat this simple test for yourselves with the Spits 25lbs. Ya know it is coming right..........

....wait for it.....

NO OVERHEAT in the apex climb portion. NONE. In fact I can do several loops in the Spit 25lbs with nada, nothing happening, while the P51 engine or TA engine is long gone. (they even removed the need in the spits to engage boost, you simply just push your throttle up past 100 percent, ... could it get any simpler for the open pit newbers ?)

And the P51 and late Spits have the same engine right ? The Merlin Rolls Royce thingy, correct? That is why, despite his sound testing in the very first post of this thread, JG27 Papa, did not capture the essential point, I am making: The combat climb portion of the overheat model, which is so essential to BnZ planes (but not to TnB ones) widens an already noticeable gap in favor of the UFO fliers and is by far inaccurately modeled (and incorrectly applied to two planes that use the same engine). Not only that, but the source code changes to the flight models of several FWs, and the TA show several reductions. In particular, the TA 152 has been downgraded, point blank. ...........Who did this patch once again ?

[JtD]

It's true, shauncm, I usually do not go up into hammerhead turns. Sometimes I do, but that is supposed to be the exception. Like you say, going that slow on a dogfight server is quite risky.

I'm not necessarily fighting team vs. team, I duel, too. But I don't duel until one side is dead, I usually duel as long as I am comfortable doing so. I try to stay alive, and only thereafter to achieve a kill.

Regarding the air temperature at high altitude, yes, it is colder, but it also is thinner. This about evens out for water cooled planes. If you look at cooling data, you'll find the differences between high and low altitude are not that big.

Being sneaky is a valuable skill, it's never good to offer the enemy a fair fight, he might win that one.

[WhistlinggDeath]

Btw JtD, your notes above on P51 use are pretty much dead on. Post that in a thread over at Mission4Today.com in the tactics and gameplay section to help out all the other North Americans wondering why the vaunted P51 does poorly in IL2.

[schnorchel]

Originally Posted by jermin

I remember Oleg has once said so before. But the truth is that right now blue is severely porked in European theater when compared to their real-life counterparts.

no need to follow their rule. it is just game and made by russian, just quit, no one plays german side anymore. let this game's online play die out.

[Snake]

I think your track doesn't show anything!