The Crystal Ball

[Ataros]

Originally Posted by Insuber

But ... it has to be declared as a Beta, otherwise it's simply a lie to raise money to allow (hopefully) to correct the bugs.

I agree that it has to, but thinking realistically how can it be even possible in the real world? Luthier - 1C, Oleg - 1C, 1C - UBI contracts all have/had non-disclosure clauses. Luthier mentioned in March or April something like please do not ask me questions answering which would get me fired the next morning. Yes, theoretically UBI could announce it as beta but we do not know if retailers or Steam would accept a beta. Thus it probably was a "stop-loss" decision to release it as it is (having an alternative to shut the project down completely).

My understanding is that new engine with too many features, too much detail and new technology exponentially increased workload and required resources which was not accounted for because no one attempted similar titanic projects in the past. (Think about why none of studios in more technologically and financially developed western countries never created anything comparable in complexity and detail in air- or even land- or sea-sims.)

Oleg accepted that he made several mistakes in the beginning of development trying to make a perfect product.

There is nothing we can do about this reality besides investing more money in MG, or applying for job with MG if we are good, or advertising CloD to friends and online buddies on other forums, or encouraging the team to overcome difficulties with our support, trust, positive and constructive attitude on the forums. Luthier said in March that they need our support and trust to break through (as they have to fight for continuation of financing by publishers I think. Oleg mentioned on his Youtube channel last spring just after the release "... if they allow the team to finish...") .

Psychologically people often feel better when publicly blaming others, busting and bitching. Internet forums is a perfect place for this. People are not stupid not to realise that their bitching discourages the team, newcomers and even investors/publishers who read these forums, therefore harming further development of the product, but keep doing it because it makes them feel better. Perfectly understandable. I did it several times on sukhoi.ru forums too.

PS. If you want continued support for the series, please help the devs every day in proving to publishers that this is a great product worth continuing investing. If you do not what further development but just a revenge you can do the opposite and be happy when the project is shut down coming here to say "I told you that it was crap!".

[kendo65]

Good post Ataros.

[robtek]

Well said, Ataros!

[BPickles]

Originally Posted by Ataros

PS. If you want continued support for the series, please help the devs every day in proving to publishers that this is a great product worth continuing investing. If you do not what further development but just a revenge you can do the opposite and be happy when the project is shut down coming here to say "I told you that it was crap!".

While i agree on the rest of your post whole heatedly the quoted bit i think is obscure and I cant agree, low market sales stops the game from being supported. The game having such a slow fix rate keeps the sales low, thus less funding from publishers, resulting in the demise of a game.

How exactly do you recommend we prove to the publishers this product is great. The Publishers don't care if this game is any good they just care for getting the investment back.

I've bought this game twice and recommended it to 3 friends who bough it too, short of that I'm not sure what you expect people to do.
The responsibility of this has always been on MG and will always been on MG to make things better, and that's what they pay their employees to do.

[Insuber]

Originally Posted by Ataros

I agree that it has to, but thinking realistically how can it be even possible in the real world? Luthier - 1C, Oleg - 1C, 1C - UBI contracts all have/had non-disclosure clauses. Luthier mentioned in March or April something like please do not ask me questions answering which would get me fired the next morning. Yes, theoretically UBI could announce it as beta but we do not know if retailers or Steam would accept a beta. Thus it probably was a "stop-loss" decision to release it as it is (having an alternative to shut the project down completely).

My understanding is that new engine with too many features, too much detail and new technology exponentially increased workload and required resources which was not accounted for because no one attempted similar titanic projects in the past. (Think about why none of studios in more technologically and financially developed western countries never created anything comparable in complexity and detail in air- or even land- or sea-sims.)

Oleg accepted that he made several mistakes in the beginning of development trying to make a perfect product.

There is nothing we can do about this reality besides investing more money in MG, or applying for job with MG if we are good, or advertising CloD to friends and online buddies on other forums, or encouraging the team to overcome difficulties with our support, trust, positive and constructive attitude on the forums. Luthier said in March that they need our support and trust to break through (as they have to fight for continuation of financing by publishers I think. Oleg mentioned on his Youtube channel last spring just after the release "... if they allow the team to finish...") .

Psychologically people often feel better when publicly blaming others, busting and bitching. Internet forums is a perfect place for this. People are not stupid not to realise that their bitching discourages the team, newcomers and even investors/publishers who read these forums, therefore harming further development of the product, but keep doing it because it makes them feel better. Perfectly understandable. I did it several times on sukhoi.ru forums too.

PS. If you want continued support for the series, please help the devs every day in proving to publishers that this is a great product worth continuing investing. If you do not what further development but just a revenge you can do the opposite and be happy when the project is shut down coming here to say "I told you that it was crap!".

Ataros, first of all, let me say that your post is perfect for eloquence and clarity. Then, to confort my words, I'm the guy who last week purchased 35 USD of RoF planes, despite that I never fly RoF. It was just because Jason wrote me a mail asking for financial help to continue the development next year. He deserves it, so I forked out my hard earned. And I'm not alone.
I will continue to do the same with CloD, and buy whatever they sell, but ... If the relationship changes from customer of a finished product, to sponsor/financer/promoter of a promising project, then the consequences must be assumed by both parties.
Among those consequences, communication and transparency are paramount. The sponsors have right as a minimum to a certain clarity on the plans and on the status of the works. More communication, to keep motivation and build trust. This is not the case today.
Hopefully the arrival of B6 in this forum will cover for this lack and reconstitute some of the lost trust.

Have a great day,
Insuber

PS: as far as promoting, actually I am the only one of my squad flying regularly CloD in ATAG, and my squad mates look at me like a bit eccentric pilot ...

[klem]

Good post Ataros.

While Sales or potential Sales might be the thing that finally decides 'live or die' we can at least, on these forums, support and encourage the project to make it clear to the distributor that there is a market for it which will grow once the problems are sorted out. We all know guys that are holding back until they are. And we can support the devs who, I believe, have more than just the 1C/Ubi investment at heart. Their own enthusiasm for the project must add something to their pay.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Shelled out some hard earned to Rise Of Flight as well during sale. Bought missing planes and some field mods on top of it. We have very few combat oriented flight sims out there and situation is not getting any better in the future so supporting those that are good.

So if CoD and it's sequels need support for sure will, but then again in return ask for more communication. This has been improved with BlackSix arriving on the scene so a clear improvement over the less frequent blurps of information we got. So going to the better slowly but steady.

[Ataros]

Originally Posted by Insuber

Ataros, first of all, let me say that your post is perfect for eloquence and clarity. Then, to confort my words, I'm the guy who last week purchased 35 USD of RoF planes, despite that I never fly RoF. It was just because Jason wrote me a mail asking for financial help to continue the development next year. He deserves it, so I forked out my hard earned. And I'm not alone.
I will continue to do the same with CloD, and buy whatever they sell, but ... If the relationship changes from customer of a finished product, to sponsor/financer/promoter of a promising project, then the consequences must be assumed by both parties.
Among those consequences, communication and transparency are paramount. The sponsors have right as a minimum to a certain clarity on the plans and on the status of the works. More communication, to keep motivation and build trust. This is not the case today.
Hopefully the arrival of B6 in this forum will cover for this lack and reconstitute some of the lost trust.

Have a great day,
Insuber

PS: as far as promoting, actually I am the only one of my squad flying regularly CloD in ATAG, and my squad mates look at me like a bit eccentric pilot ...

Sorry I did not mean my entire post to be a reply to you personally but only the 1st paragraph. I agree with you and wish things could be better. I disagree with those who can not handle their negative emotions and bring them here to public again and again and again because this is destructive for the project.

777 is a privately owned business as far as I understand, 1C is a relatively huge corporation. What possible for 777 is not possible for 1C which is sad. Oleg had the courage to take responsibility and say about the project whatever he thinks because IL-2 was his child and he could not be just fired because he said something shareholders would not like. But now he is gone from this business. Maybe luthier can stand up and take responsibility for sincerely telling the community everything he thinks... but would community benefit if he looses his job because of crossing the line and telling too much about the reasons of bugs, etc.?

I did not get an e-mail from Jason btw (maybe I have to much RoF planes already ) and I am not going to their forums bitching about discrimination and bad customer relationship management but just assume that the mail got lost somewhere in spam filters (however I got a receipt for the purchase I made after reading the message on the forums).

Some people do not understand what is constructive and what is destructive, do not understand if they bring good or bad to the community and to the project. Thanks God, this is not a life or death issue.

$50 is nothing compared to what Oleg had to go through if you think about it btw.

EDIT: Regarding international community manager position, I asked luthier several months ago if they have such a vacancy. IIRC he replied that 1C marketing department was being downsized at that moment and people were fired. If I got it right, BlackSix's primary role is 1) mission design for BoM (because he used to work in MG at the same position in the past), then 2) managing community projects on creation of Operational Manuals, Mission-designers reference book, etc. (which the international community will benefit from) using the convenience of local forums where BlackSix is a member for 11-years (yes before original Il-2 release), and only then 3) answering some questions on the forums.

BTW UBI has the international marketing budget (which an international community manager should be paid from) because they are the publisher outside Russia but not the 1C. 1C has the marketing budget only or Russia being the publisher only for Russia and can pay for community manager only for Russia (English-speaking people are much more expensive here.). Theoretically money 1C spends on maintaining international forums is a good will only and responsibility of UBI imo.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by Ataros

I agree that it has to

Well.. depends on the definition of beta

The two main areas being bugs and features

Some people define 'beta' as software released with a 'bug' in it.. Which is not only un-reasonable but flat out silly! Because by that definition most if not all software is beta, because most if not all software has bugs in the initial release. With that said not only is CoD excluded from being called beta for that reason, but all software is excluded from being called beta for that reason.

Some people define 'beta' as software not including all the features advertised on the box.. But in light of the fact that nothing was advertised that we did not receive also excludes CoD from being called beta.

Anyone that has had any experience with 1C previous flight sim, i.e. IL-2 knows that over the course of 10+ years 1C has provided several 'PAID' for 'upgrades' to IL-2 that include new features, maps, planes etc.. And during that same time 1C has provided 'FREE' updates that not only patched/fixed bugs but also added new features, maps, planes, etc.. Which is practically un-heard of in the PC gaming market!

Problem is a lot of people got 'use' to this 'GREAT' support (set the bar high) and receiving 'FREE' stuff such that now when 1C is struggling to tie up all the loose ends most of these spoiled people are now looking like the mob in an old Frankenstein movie and picking up torches and pitch forks and heading to 1C (virtually) to string Oleg up

So, in a weird sort of way, 1C caused this 'ungratefulness' problem by giving away what most flights sims (like RoF) charge $ for.

Sad but true

Originally Posted by Ataros

Psychologically people often feel better when publicly blaming others, busting and bitching. Internet forums is a perfect place for this. People are not stupid not to realize that their bitching discourages the team, newcomers and even investors/publishers who read these forums, therefore harming further development of the product, but keep doing it because it makes them feel better. Perfectly understandable. I did it several times on sukhoi.ru forums too.

Agreed 100%!

We have all had our moments where we vent in frustration.. But identifying the problem should not be confused with an excuse for the problem.

[JG52Krupi]

Mod edit: going over the same old same old is not necessary, or helpful.