ATAG Dedicated Server is up!

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by klem

2. Until now the 109s have had it all their own way because even with the Rotol Hurricane the 109, properly flown, is king whereas the Spitfire was actually the superior dogfighting aircraft and under the right circumstances could beat the 109 in an energy fight too. It wasn't only the 109s that could play the energy game. The reds have been denied that simply because of the 109 modelling (this is a 109 problem remember, not a Spit IIa problem). At present the currently undermodelled Spitfire Ia versus the current 109 is every bit as bad as an undermodelled 109 versus a current Spitfire IIa. How do you think it feels to know that every time you fly red you are going to lose an even-numbered match unless the 109 pilot is stupid? That's another 'injustice' resolved.

I gotta disagree with you here. The Hurri MkI as currently modeled is superior to the 109E in angles tactics, and indeed the 109's climb advantage is not so great up high as it is on the deck. By constrast, the Spit IIa out turns, out climbs, AND is faster than the 109.

Hurri pilots facing a 109E are not in the same situation as 109E pilots facing a Spit 2. They are not required to merely hope for the other guy to make a mistake, as they have angles tactics available to them. The 109 is faster and can disengage at will but two Hurricanes working together (ANY aircraft operating on its own is useless when facing teamwork) are a force to be reckoned with. The problem I see most on ATAG is that a lot of pilots (Red AND Blue, but seemingly more Red) are flying across the Channel at low altitudes and finding themselves with 109s overhead. I've lost count of the number of times I've flown over to England and seen nobody above 4000m/15000ft. That really isn't very high, and quite frankly the Hurricanes should be operating higher than that.

3. If, post-patch, properly modelled 109s are going to die to properly modelled Spitfires it just means that for a while, until the next patch comes out, a few are going to die a lot quicker than at present. Just for a short while the advantage will swing to the reds (who are usually outnumbered on the ATAG server anyway).

Depends what time you fly. A lot of times when I'm on there are more reds than blues by a large margin. In any case, I'm not sure that relative numbers on a pub server are a good metric for this sort of thing. I could just as easily bring up the JG27 missions where Blue was outnumbered severely and got our butts kicked.

I understand that the spit 1a might be outmatched, but I don't think that introducing the Spit 2a is the correct solution.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I gotta disagree with you here. The Hurri MkI as currently modeled is superior to the 109E in angles tactics, and indeed the 109's climb advantage is not so great up high as it is on the deck. By constrast, the Spit IIa out turns, out climbs, AND is faster than the 109.

Hurri pilots facing a 109E are not in the same situation as 109E pilots facing a Spit 2. They are not required to merely hope for the other guy to make a mistake, as they have angles tactics available to them. The 109 is faster and can disengage at will but two Hurricanes working together (ANY aircraft operating on its own is useless when facing teamwork) are a force to be reckoned with. The problem I see most on ATAG is that a lot of pilots (Red AND Blue, but seemingly more Red) are flying across the Channel at low altitudes and finding themselves with 109s overhead. I've lost count of the number of times I've flown over to England and seen nobody above 4000m/15000ft. That really isn't very high, and quite frankly the Hurricanes should be operating higher than that.

Depends what time you fly. A lot of times when I'm on there are more reds than blues by a large margin. In any case, I'm not sure that relative numbers on a pub server are a good metric for this sort of thing. I could just as easily bring up the JG27 missions where Blue was outnumbered severely and got our butts kicked.

I understand that the spit 1a might be outmatched, but I don't think that introducing the Spit 2a is the correct solution.

+1

I never fly the Spit IIa when on Red, in fact I was team balancing last night on Red on the ATAG server and flew a hurri Rotal. Got about two kills including one where I chased a 109 up to around 5000m's and got him, admittedly it was an epic fight but I enjoyed it very much.

Plus the FM's are not right yet. It will be very interesting to see what 1c do to the FM's.

Also the SpitfireI was in its infancy whereas the 109 had been in development since its first flight in 1935, it had also been tried and tested allot more. The Spitfire didnt just roll of the factory line and decimate the Luftwaffe... It was an arms race where sometimes the 109 was better, some times the Spitfire was better... Its 1940, not 1945.

[Robo.]

I've seen Mk.IIa Spitfires last night and came on ATAG forum for more intel on that. I am not happy to see it there. From the discussion if feels like they were toying with the Mk.IIa idea mainly because the RAF side got their wings kicked by Russian group of pilots flying well and flying together in very good machines (E-4). I don't think that reaction on their successfull tactics should be adding a better airplane on Red side What I also understood from some opinions, this is to restrict vulching Hawkinge and Lympne airfields. Anyone who ever been on ATAG knows what I mean but again, this is not very good. On the end of the day, it's up to server guys really, I respect their decision and stick to Mk.Is on my end.

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I gotta disagree with you here. The Hurri MkI as currently modeled is superior to the 109E in angles tactics

In my opinion, it is not. You have to outlfy the 109 pilot by great margin and you have to be very good at keeping your energy. Good Bf 109 pilot will give you little chance - my experience at least.

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

, and indeed the 109's climb advantage is not so great up high as it is on the deck. By constrast, the Spit IIa out turns, out climbs, AND is faster than the 109.

Hurri pilots facing a 109E are not in the same situation as 109E pilots facing a Spit 2.

This is very true, the performance gap between Mk.IIa and Emil is massive

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Depends what time you fly. A lot of times when I'm on there are more reds than blues by a large margin. In any case, I'm not sure that relative numbers on a pub server are a good metric for this sort of thing.

Depends when you fly perhaps - I am in the UK, flying mornings, afternoons and late nights (as late as 3am sometimes) and I can confirm that Blue is much more popular at any of these times. In fact, I keep making screenshots of the stats when I notice the odds are way way waaay off. Happens very often. I don't mind it at all, it is obvious that everyone wants to fly an E-4. What I don't like and what makes me leave the server is when I fly Red, there is 16 blues to 4 red and no matter where I spawn (Manston, Lympne, Hawkinge, even Maidstone), I get killed on the ground by some kid in a E-4. Doesn't happen too often though. What klem says about Blue vs. Red is generally true, very rarely can you see Reds being in majority - I know that because I fly any side that needs more pilots and I end up flying RAF 95 percent of the time.

Obviously this decision will upset lots of strictly blue pilots - well, deal with it I would say, it's still just a Spitfire.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Hmm I have seen allot of people flying the E4, however not me. I find it more challenging to use the E3 without the minengeschoss. You all know the only difference is a faulty auto prop pitch and minengeschoss dont you?

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Hmm I have seen allot of people flying the E4, however not me. I find it more challenging to use the E3 without the minengeschoss. You all know the only difference is a faulty auto prop pitch and minengeschoss dont you?

The auto prop pitch works okay if you pop it in and out of manual mode just before you start your takeoff roll. It's not as good performance as properly-managed manual pitch but for me the decreased workload is a big plus.

[trumps]

I still much prefer flying my E-1 than the E-4, the 1 is a much steadier gun platform with is 4 mg's than the cannons kicking things around!

Craig

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Robo.

In my opinion, it is not. You have to outlfy the 109 pilot by great margin and you have to be very good at keeping your energy. Good Bf 109 pilot will give you little chance - my experience at least.

Keep in mind I said angles tactics. Trying to use energy tactics against the 109 is not a good move unless he's already slow or you have a significant altitude advantage.

This is very true, the performance gap between Mk.IIa and Emil is massive

And in my opinion much larger than the gap between the Hurri and the Emil.

Obviously this decision will upset lots of strictly blue pilots - well, deal with it I would say, it's still just a Spitfire.

"Just" a spitfire is fine and dandy until squadrons start using them with good team tactics, and in good numbers. 6 guys, maybe even as few as 4 guys would have the ability to completely decimate the Axis side.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Keep in mind I said angles tactics. Trying to use energy tactics against the 109 is not a good move unless he's already slow or you have a significant altitude advantage.

No worries, I understand. Using angles tactics against a Hurricane is OK but risky if you meet a good pilot. What I said is that Hurri is not much better at it (my experience and observation) as it's very sluggish at controls, especially rudder and ailerons. Matter of preference, at angles, all depends on how the pilot uses his machine, Hurricane is capable, no doubt.

Using energy tactics is good move at anytime if you know what you're doing. Matter of opinion perhaps and also, I usually try to BnZ the 109s, but even if bounced myself, it is possible to recover and reverse the situation quite often, that was my point. In any situation, you really need to outfly the 109 pilot in order to be succesful as he's got better performing aircraft.

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

And in my opinion much larger than the gap between the Hurri and the Emil.

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

"Just" a spitfire is fine and dandy until squadrons start using them with good team tactics, and in good numbers. 6 guys, maybe even as few as 4 guys would have the ability to completely decimate the Axis side.

Just like they use the E-4 at the moment, using good team tactics (and swarming airfields in low alt as the AAA is harmless) and in good numbers. 4 guys decimating the Allied side hands down already. Add few kids vulching (alambash! ) and you get the everyday ATAGesque picture.

I am not saying I agree with the Mk.IIa. But if the Emils at least bother to gains some alt fearing the Mk.II before they aproach the English coast, I am happy. You don't see many Blue pilots up high because they don't need to atm.

[drewpee]

I must say I find I can get shot down equally as well in a spit hurry or 109.

[klem]

Originally Posted by cheesehawk

I think part of the problem is that the Hurricanes and Spitfire I's roles are reversed, and fresh meat that jumps in wanting to fly the "Saviour of Britain" don't realize while it looks like a Spitfire, it actually flies like the Hurricane, and vice versa. The Hurri is faster, climbs better, but the Spitfire is the more maneuverable. Still, I don't think you should introduce a relative monster "Just for the hell of it for awhile". Why not only allow G.50s for awhile instead? You'll have the same enormous advantage in both performance and numbers. I'm betting most of the blue aces stay away.

Well at the end of the day its ATAGs decision but I may jump into a Spit IIa later this evening if its still there just for the fun of it, when I'll be flying alone.

One thing is for sure, well two things....
I hope the next patch puts the FMs close to where they belong.
If it does, there will still be people claiming the other sides a/c are Uber.