Sure hope Oleg gets with the program

[Blackdog_kt]

It's interesting how in the case of the middle east muslims you are so vocal, but when it comes to the balkans it's a vague statement that "kosovo and serbia had their differences".

If the US is so scared of Muslims i would expect a universally heavy-handed attitude against them. Since that's not the case, i don't really believe your issue are the Muslims per se, but the Muslims that don't serve your interests.

The inconsistency of your administrations is totally ridiculous. I wouldn't even mind if they said outright that they are out to preserve US interests (in any way they perceive them) or even if they said nothing at all, but trying to sugar coat their interventionist policy and continuous revision of everything that annoys them as some sort of humanitarian mission that we should all sympathise with and maybe even bleed for (yeah they wish), is infuriating to say the least.

I mean, how am i supposed to believe they really care about the rise of radical islam, when:

1)They themselves have funded such groups numerous times in the past (Bin Laden against USSR in Afghanistan)

2) They are allied with countries that contain the bigger % of radical population (Saudi Arabia)

3) Threaten and attack only secular muslim countries, where the local dictatoship is 1000 times more effective than the US at containing the radicals (Iraq and Syria). There was no real radical threat under Saddam's rule, who coincidentally was also a western-backed leader to contain the rise of radicals in Iran. Seems like whenever someone in the west is scared, someone else in the middle east must either get bombed to the stone age or suffer a dictatorship and forced to fight his neighbors himself. The western countries that did so many great things in the past don't even want to do their own dirty laundry now.

4) Turn a blind eye to radical islamic groups in various well documented cases and even speak in public in their support (Chechen-Russian war, before the 9/11 attacks).

5) Use military violence to form not one but two unstable states that harbor radical groups smack in the middle of Europe's soft spot (Bosnia and Kosovo).

And most of the above, with total disregard to international law.

Sorry mates, i'm not buying it. The US administration doesn't have a beef with Muslims, it has a beef with anyone that's doesn't get along with their tune. Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.

The reasons are very simple and nobody is an idiot, so they might as well come clean about it. A Europe with money but lack of natural reserves is a perfect match for a capitalist Russia that lacks money but has ample gas and oil to supply. And then nobody will play with them anymore. That's all the US policy makers do, make sure they don't become obsolete. The arguments about humanitarian reasons and promotion of democracy are in such a stark contrast to what they've done and still do in various parts of the world, that even a kindergarden student would be hard pressed not to think "wow, these guys must think i'm a total idiot".

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

It's interesting how in the case of the middle east muslims you are so vocal, but when it comes to the balkans it's a vague statement that "kosovo and serbia had their differences".
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I wasn't playing it down, what's the sense of detailing it. The whole world knows what happened in that conflict. It was genocide of the worst kind, and the Muslims were the blunt of it. Guess who came to their aid? The U.S. infidels of course, not the muslims.

---------------------------------

If the US is so scared of Muslims i would expect a universally heavy-handed attitude against them. Since that's not the case, i don't really believe your issue are the Muslims per se, but the Muslims that don't serve your interests.
--------------------------------

Scared, where did you drag that up from? We Americans are having issues everyday with muslims, and there are darn few doing anything in our interest except to sell us oil.

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The inconsistency of your administrations is totally ridiculous. I wouldn't even mind if they said outright that they are out to preserve US interests (in any way they perceive them) or even if they said nothing at all, but trying to sugar coat their interventionist policy and continuous revision of everything that annoys them as some sort of humanitarian mission that we should all sympathise with and maybe even bleed for (yeah they wish), is infuriating to say the least.

----------------------------------------

Inconsistency, interventionist --- and who wants sympathy?

We know there is no sympathy, because everyone thinks they can appease the Muslim extremists by ragging on American and not participating. LOL

All those little appeasements are going to be worthless when the extremists get around to serving up their revenge for just about anything they can conjure up. Currently, the extremists are just too busy with America to do more than kill a few hundred people in Spain, England or countries.

----------------------------------------

I mean, how am i supposed to believe they really care about the rise of radical islam, when:

1)They themselves have funded such groups numerous times in the past (Bin Laden against USSR in Afghanistan)

----------------------------------------

Sorry, but since no one else steps up to help or do anything. The US has become the world's police. America helped in the Eastern bloc to protect Muslims, and in Afghanistan to help the afghans defend themselves from the Russians.

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2) They are allied with countries that contain the bigger % of radical population (Saudi Arabia)

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And where do you get your oil from? Compromises have to be made.

Like most of the developing world we need gasoline and we may not like who we have to buy it from... but buy it we must.

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3) Threaten and attack only secular muslim countries, where the local dictatoship is 1000 times more effective than the US at containing the radicals (Iraq and Syria). There was no real radical threat under Saddam's rule, who coincidentally was also a western-backed leader to contain the rise of radicals in Iran. Seems like whenever someone in the west is scared, someone else in the middle east must either get bombed to the stone age or suffer a dictatorship and forced to fight his neighbors himself. The western countries that did so many great things in the past don't even want to do their own dirty laundry now.

----------------------------------

LOL --- No terrorists in Iraq... who the heck is killing all the people in Iraq. Muslims killing Muslims. Like I said they can't get along among themselves.

-----------------------------------

4) Turn a blind eye to radical islamic groups in various well documented cases and even speak in public in their support (Chechen-Russian war, before the 9/11 attacks).

-----------------------------------

What has this got to do with anything? Who turned a blind eye to radical islam? Also, I always had the idea the Chechnya was part of Russia. Oh, I forgot the Chechens don't want to be part of Russia.

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5) Use military violence to form not one but two unstable states that harbor radical groups smack in the middle of Europe's soft spot (Bosnia and Kosovo).

------------------------------------

Who is doing this? As I recall they just got their independence recognized.

----------------------------------

And most of the above, with total disregard to international law.

----------------------------------

International law... what law, who holds jurisdiction.

-----------------------------------

Sorry mates, i'm not buying it. The US administration doesn't have a beef with Muslims, it has a beef with anyone that's doesn't get along with their tune. Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.

------------------------------------

buying it??

Pawns.. who are you talking to, everyone has problems with Muslims. As I recall Muslim extremists bombed and killed another large group of Muslim civilians today in Iraq. You tell me what kind of brotherhood that is?

--------------------------------------

The reasons are very simple and nobody is an idiot, so they might as well come clean about it. A Europe with money but lack of natural reserves is a perfect match for a capitalist Russia that lacks money but has ample gas and oil to supply. And then nobody will play with them anymore. That's all the US policy makers do, make sure they don't become obsolete. The arguments about humanitarian reasons and promotion of democracy are in such a stark contrast to what they've done and still do in various parts of the world, that even a kindergarden student would be hard pressed not to think "wow, these guys must think i'm a total idiot".

-------------------------------------

All the theys just don't connect to make any sense.

[Theshark888]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.

There is so much that is naive/factually wrong with what you say that it's ridiculous. Every country works with/against other countries to get the most benefit. Many times the USA has gone above and beyond this criteria to help many others when we really did not have to.

It took the USA to go into the Balkans to stop genocide (to help Muslims I must add)-where were all the "smart/great/caring" Europeans. Same thing as Darfur-no one is willing to get involved until it turns out to be the USA. Even in Afghanistan it's nearly impossible to get the required help from certain members of NATO. Our next Presidential election will show you what will happen in a World where the USA turns again to isolationism. As a so-called Superpower I think we have been relatively behaved when compared to any other like-sized country/empire. I

[Blackdog_kt]

The point i'm trying to make but some of you don't get is very simple. You can't help someone who doesn't want your help, you'll only annoy them or worse. If a woman is forced to wear a burgha against her will it's bad, but if a woman wants to wear it who am i to bomb her country to "liberate" her from covering her face?

The US has helped a lot of people and harmed equally many. Helping is not their concern, helping people with common interests is.

Nearmiss, i respect your freedom of having a different opinion even if i totally disagree with it. I just want you to know that to an outsider like me you don't seem very different from a mildly radical muslim, the only thing that changes is a couple of names..US instead of Iraq, Christianity instead of Islam.

I honestly mean you no offence with what i'm saying, but your though patterns are very similar.

It's not your ideas that will make you different from those people that annoy you so much, it's how you pursue them that will.

As for the genocide in the Balkans, i live less than a day from where most of it all went down and i can tell you with absolute certainty that it wasn't only one side engaging in the killing and mass expulsion of civilians.

This isn't even new, it dates back to the middle ages up to WW2, but it's not your fault that CNN won't show you a report about it. I don't mean this as an insult, but i don't expect a country with 200 years of existence under its belt to understand blood feuds that have been going on in circles for half a millennium. They simply lack the collective "historical experience" (for want of a better phrase) as a nation to see things that way, plus they've been in so many wars and never saw their home turf getting bombed that i would be an idiot to believe they would understand why things are the way they are in the Balkans. And i don't blame them for it one bit. I blame them for thinking their way is the only way when they have a fraction of the knowledge required to see the big picture.

Everyone knows how many Bosnian civilians were killed by Serbian paramilitary units, it's just too bad that nobody knows how many Serbian civilians were killed by Croatian/Muslim/Albanian paramilitaries. To think that it was as one sided as western media portrayed it is honest lack of knowledge at best, or downright naivety at worst. If you want to know why the Serbian irregulars were so aggressive against civilians in these recent wars, maybe you should read about the Jasenovac concentration camps and the 13th SS Handschar division during WW2. There where no saints there. There is not one of these nations that can claim their guys were 100% innocent and the enemy was 100% guilty, they were all guilty of crimes to varying degrees and they have long memories to keep the feuds going.

You don't end these vendettas if you single out only one of the offenders for punishment, because it's equal to rewarding the rest for their transgressions. If the international community really wanted to put an end to this, they would punish everyone equally to make it known that they'll gain nothing by killing the other side's civilians. Instead, they rewarded 3 of the factions for their crimes by only using force against the fourth. Rewarding might seem a harsh word to you, but it's perfectly suitable. If i'm the kind of person to do this kind of stuff and see i can kill and pillage just like the next guy, only i can do it with impunity and foreign support while he can't, then i'll do it again.

A lot of Greek people went to study in Yugoslavian universities before all the wars broke out and the news they brought when they were forced to return during each war was equally damning for all nations in the area. We just have to believe that it was a coincidence the US bombed the only nation that was friendly with Russia

As for some other questions raised above...

International law does exist despite the fact the US (and other countries too) is trying to sidestep it on occasion. They are hell bent on the Hague tribunal for war crimes in Yugoslavia, but don't sign the human rights court charter because their hands are dirty with Guandanamo. There is law and there is jurisdiction and you should know better, your grandfathers fought and died and legislated with other countries when they formed the UN, to prevent these kinds of things from happening in the future. Too bad that modern day governments are so keen to do away with their work.

As for cases like Darfur i have one word for you. Rwanda. Where was the US intervention there, when your own diplomats were frantically calling back home to persuade higher ups to send a single division? Well you see, Rwanda is not as close as Sudan is to areas of geopolitical interest like the Horn of Africa

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

The point i'm trying to make but some of you don't get is very simple. You can't help someone who doesn't want your help, you'll only annoy them or worse. If a woman is forced to wear a burgha against her will it's bad, but if a woman wants to wear it who am i to bomb her country to "liberate" her from covering her face?

The US has helped a lot of people and harmed equally many. Helping is not their concern, helping people with common interests is.

Nearmiss, i respect your freedom of having a different opinion even if i totally disagree with it. I just want you to know that to an outsider like me you don't seem very different from a mildly radical muslim, the only thing that changes is a couple of names..US instead of Iraq, Christianity instead of Islam.

I honestly mean you no offence with what i'm saying, but your though patterns are very similar.

It's not your ideas that will make you different from those people that annoy you so much, it's how you pursue them that will.

As for the genocide in the Balkans, i live less than a day from where most of it all went down and i can tell you with absolute certainty that it wasn't only one side engaging in the killing and mass expulsion of civilians.

This isn't even new, it dates back to the middle ages up to WW2, but it's not your fault that CNN won't show you a report about it. I don't mean this as an insult, but i don't expect a country with 200 years of existence under its belt to understand blood feuds that have been going on in circles for half a millennium. They simply lack the collective "historical experience" (for want of a better phrase) as a nation to see things that way, plus they've been in so many wars and never saw their home turf getting bombed that i would be an idiot to believe they would understand why things are the way they are in the Balkans. And i don't blame them for it one bit. I blame them for thinking their way is the only way when they have a fraction of the knowledge required to see the big picture.

Everyone knows how many Bosnian civilians were killed by Serbian paramilitary units, it's just too bad that nobody knows how many Serbian civilians were killed by Croatian/Muslim/Albanian paramilitaries. To think that it was as one sided as western media portrayed it is honest lack of knowledge at best, or downright naivety at worst. If you want to know why the Serbian irregulars were so aggressive against civilians in these recent wars, maybe you should read about the Jasenovac concentration camps and the 13th SS Handschar division during WW2. There where no saints there. There is not one of these nations that can claim their guys were 100% innocent and the enemy was 100% guilty, they were all guilty of crimes to varying degrees and they have long memories to keep the feuds going.

You don't end these vendettas if you single out only one of the offenders for punishment, because it's equal to rewarding the rest for their transgressions. If the international community really wanted to put an end to this, they would punish everyone equally to make it known that they'll gain nothing by killing the other side's civilians. Instead, they rewarded 3 of the factions for their crimes by only using force against the fourth. Rewarding might seem a harsh word to you, but it's perfectly suitable. If i'm the kind of person to do this kind of stuff and see i can kill and pillage just like the next guy, only i can do it with impunity and foreign support while he can't, then i'll do it again.

A lot of Greek people went to study in Yugoslavian universities before all the wars broke out and the news they brought when they were forced to return during each war was equally damning for all nations in the area. We just have to believe that it was a coincidence the US bombed the only nation that was friendly with Russia

As for some other questions raised above...

International law does exist despite the fact the US (and other countries too) is trying to sidestep it on occasion. They are hell bent on the Hague tribunal for war crimes in Yugoslavia, but don't sign the human rights court charter because their hands are dirty with Guandanamo. There is law and there is jurisdiction and you should know better, your grandfathers fought and died and legislated with other countries when they formed the UN, to prevent these kinds of things from happening in the future. Too bad that modern day governments are so keen to do away with their work.

As for cases like Darfur i have one word for you. Rwanda. Where was the US intervention there, when your own diplomats were frantically calling back home to persuade higher ups to send a single division? Well you see, Rwanda is not as close as Sudan is to areas of geopolitical interest like the Horn of Africa

Reading your posting I realize regardless what is written, or how much good you know the US has done you seek occassion against US. Therefore you will always be able to turn over at least one stone for disagreement.

You accuse the US, but where was your country when Rwanda needed help?
What did your country do to prevent genocide in the the Serbia /Kosovo/ Croatia conflicts? The US recognized the independence of Kosovo, several days ago. Did your country do that?

You're just like others that blame America to ignore the fact your own country does nothing. It's not about being a rich or poor country, when a country wants to help they can find a way.

The world is full of whiners, excuse makers, people and governments that do nothing to help others. So, I say before you accuse the US take a look at what your own country does.

[Bobb4]

Relax guys