Sure hope Oleg gets with the program

[mondo]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

There is an unchangeable fact about Muslims and we should all know it by now. There is no way to ever have lasting peace with them. They don't get along among themselves, and their disputes are wars and insurrections. They don't just hate Christians and Jews, even though they may make expressions of that. They hate Non-Muslims and it has been that way sense the creation of the Muslim religion.

I hope you never get into a position of power or influence. You need to go and travel and educate yourself about Islam by being around some Muslims in an Islamic state, because your ideas on what Muslim peoples are like and what Islam is like is massively incorrect. I personally don't like or favour any religion but at least if I'm going to voice an opinion on one I'll get my facts straight first.

[Avimimus]

There have been several very tolerant Muslim dominated states in history. This kind of ignorant pseudo-genocidal talk is horrifying to me.

As I mentioned it earlier: I will just point out that Al-Qaeda's attacks have nothing to do with anti-americanism, but rather with gaining prestige and triggering civil wars in the middle east.

I will also say that democracy is something that is learned gradually by a society over decades of discussion, it is the belief that everyone has a role in producing and taking responsibility for government, and finally, that one can respect an opponent and give them time to learn and change.

That said, I really appreciate the olive branches poster in this thread and the wisdom of some of its people. But I don't think I can continue without "storming out of the room", due to this last comment (about Islam). There is no society wide enemy that is impossible to negotiate with.

This is the kind of reasoning that advocated the destruction of North America's aboriginal population (on the grounds that they were naturally unable to peacefully co-exist with civilisation) and a first strike against China's population centers (on the grounds that they were athiest/mind-controlled/communists who were out to kill anyone over 15 years of age or 20k a year income).

Think before you write, people do listen and sometimes a few casual attitudes do, in the long run, lead to unspeakable results.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by mondo

I hope you never get into a position of power or influence. You need to go and travel and educate yourself about Islam by being around some Muslims in an Islamic state, because your ideas on what Muslim peoples are like and what Islam is like is massively incorrect. I personally don't like or favour any religion but at least if I'm going to voice an opinion on one I'll get my facts straight first.

You said, "educate yourself about islam by being around some muslims in an islamic state". You mean Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, or any middle east country where I could be decapitated for having a Christian Bible on my person? I think that being among people that ignorant and intolerant is just about the last place on earth I'd want to be.

[311thCopperhead]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

The Muslims and infidels (as we are called) have never been reconciled with each other since the Crusades.

It isn't about favoring any religion, it is written in the Koran to strike off the head of the infidel. There is no tolerance or peace possible when it is written in the Muslim bible. The only peace possible is temporary or tentative peace.

Europeans and the Brits have large problems with Muslim immigrants now. Kosovo and Serbia have certainly had their differences. The Russians have their problems with Muslims as well. It isn't about who is right are wrong, it is about being Muslim or not.

Religious beliefs are the most powerful motivators, i.e, the Al Queda. Tell me about tolerance, and mutual respect. There is none, Muslim radicals seek the death of all people, governments, etc. that are not Muslim. That is a clear mandate. What do you think when someone tells says they hate you , want to kill you and would do so if possible?

I'd say that is some darn serious chatter, only a fool would ignore such talk.

There are exceptions among Muslim believers that just want to live and let live, but they aren't very persuasive among their Muslim brothers. This may be the type Muslims about whom you are thinking.

You said, "educate yourself about islam by being around some muslims in an islamic state". You mean Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, or any middle east country where I could be decapitated for having a Christian Bible on my person? I think that being in a country like that is just about the last place on earth I'd want to be.

+1
Personally.....the feeling is mutual.

[mondo]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Sorry mates, i'm not buying it. The US administration doesn't have a beef with Muslims, it has a beef with anyone that's doesn't get along with their tune. Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.

Agreed 100%. Before Muslims it was Communists. When Communism stopped posing a serious threat to Democracy another focus was needed. Why another focus was needed I'm not quite sure but it sure makes people more patriotic when there is a common enemy.

Originally Posted by nearmiss

You said, "educate yourself about islam by being around some muslims in an islamic state". You mean Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, or any middle east country where I could be decapitated for having a Christian Bible on my person? I think that being among people that ignorant and intolerant is just about the last place on earth I'd want to be.

Your the ignorant and intolerant as your using sweeping generalizations about cultures you clearly know nothing about or have ever bothered to visit. Yes, carrying the bible in Saudi is illegal, so what? Its not a death sentence.

Ever heard the term "When in Rome..."? Wearing a head scarf in government or educational establishments is illegal in Turkey (a predominantly Muslim nation with a secular government). People just get on with it, its the local law. Like if I go to the US and jaywalk, that might get me arrested. How daft is that says the man from Britain. But in the US I had to deal with the local intolerance towards pedestrians. I wasn't even carrying anything offensive, just wanting to cross the street, something perfectly legal to do in most of the rest of the world.

Go to Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Pakistan or the majority of Muslim nations and you'll see different faiths living side by side in perfectly tolerant and very old societies. Its unfair to put all Muslims under a generalisation because they are not all the same, not all Muslim nations are the same. And people tend to forget the problems in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, the Muslim nations people tend to always refer to are all because of Western nations interference (mainly Britain, then the USSR and now the US) over the last 80 years.

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Religious beliefs are the most powerful motivators, i.e, the Al Queda. Tell me about tolerance, and mutual respect. There is none, Muslim radicals seek the death of all people, governments, etc. that are not Muslim. That is a clear mandate. What do you think when someone tells says they hate you , want to kill you and would do so if possible?

Generalisation again. Extremists make up a very small number of Muslims, a tiny number but they have loud voices. However some of there ideology towards other faiths is not really that much different to the Christian far right in the USA or the Catholic or Protestant churches towards other faiths until quite recent history.

[Bobb4]

There is no such thing as an Islamic Extremist. Islam is a religion of peace. There is no such thing as a Christian Extremist. Christianity is a religion of peace.
But there are people and they are daft buggers who like war. Even at a young age most of us buy our children guns, model tanks and planes and then we wonder why they grow-up and join the army.
So who causes war, daft buggers who buy their kids guns and stuff when they are young Amen.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by mondo

Agreed 100%. Before Muslims it was Communists. When Communism stopped posing a serious threat to Democracy another focus was needed. Why another focus was needed I'm not quite sure but it sure makes people more patriotic when there is a common enemy.

Your the ignorant and intolerant as your using sweeping generalizations about cultures you clearly know nothing about or have ever bothered to visit. Yes, carrying the bible in Saudi is illegal, so what? Its not a death sentence.

Ever heard the term "When in Rome..."? Wearing a head scarf in government or educational establishments is illegal in Turkey (a predominantly Muslim nation with a secular government). People just get on with it, its the local law. Like if I go to the US and jaywalk, that might get me arrested. How daft is that says the man from Britain. But in the US I had to deal with the local intolerance towards pedestrians. I wasn't even carrying anything offensive, just wanting to cross the street, something perfectly legal to do in most of the rest of the world.

Go to Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Pakistan or the majority of Muslim nations and you'll see different faiths living side by side in perfectly tolerant and very old societies. Its unfair to put all Muslims under a generalisation because they are not all the same, not all Muslim nations are the same. And people tend to forget the problems in Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran, the Muslim nations people tend to always refer to are all because of Western nations interference (mainly Britain, then the USSR and now the US) over the last 80 years.

Generalisation again. Extremists make up a very small number of Muslims, a tiny number but they have loud voices. However some of there ideology towards other faiths is not really that much different to the Christian far right in the USA or the Catholic or Protestant churches towards other faiths until quite recent history.

You said, "Your the ignorant and intolerant as your using sweeping generalizations about cultures you clearly know nothing about or have ever bothered to visit."

You said, "Yes, carrying the bible in Saudi is illegal, so what? Its not a death sentence."

Then what is the sentence? Deportation after a lengthy prison sentence or worse? I haven't been in Saudi for some time, but they embrace many mundane infractions as forbidden in the the name of Islam.

The Americans on these boards will speak right up. We aren't ashamed of our record, regardless of how other people twist and spin their speculative poisons.

Your Jaywalk analogy is peculiar. Jaywalking laws are practically never enforced, but they aren't stupid. Those laws are to keep pedestrians out of vehiclar traffic to prevent them from getting killed or injured. IMO, they are good laws because I sure don't want to run over someone.

It written in the Koran in so many words to strike off the head of the infidel? It sure as heck is, and those kinds of words in the hands of the wrong people cause problems, mistrust and hatred.

In America, we currently have about 6 million muslims. We get along fine with them and Americans live side by side with them as well. Do you know we don't have any laws to prohibit those persons from carry a copy of the Koran, or owning it in our country. Do you know they actually enjoy all the freedoms of being an American, freedom of speech, freedom to worship as they please, freedom to evangelize other Americans. All things that are forbidden in Muslim dominated middle east countries.

I agree that so-called Muslim extremists are not intune with any religion. They use religion to further their agenda of hatred and murder. They justify their works on the basis of faith, but we all know it's a lie. The media all over the world prefers to use words that apply to religion, because it makes better press. Intelligent people know that, but those ignorant and deceived people that are strapping on those bombs and blowing themselves up don't get it.

Have you read about any vehement denials from Muslim clerics and leaders of those persons discouraging suicide attacks? I don't read of them trying to do anything about it.

An excerpt from PBS frontline:

A madrassa is an Islamic religious school. Many of the Taliban were educated in Saudi-financed madrassas in Pakistan that teach Wahhabism, a particularly austere and rigid form of Islam which is rooted in Saudi Arabia. Around the world, Saudi wealth and charities contributed to an explosive growth of madrassas during the Afghan jihad against the Soviets. During that war (1979-1989), a new kind of madrassa emerged in the Pakistan-Afghanistan region --
not so much concerned about scholarship as making war on infidels. The enemy then was the Soviet Union, today it's America.

Here is video from PBS..

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...etc/video.html

------------------------------------------------

[Chivas]

Originally Posted by mondo

I hope you never get into a position of power or influence. You need to go and travel and educate yourself about Islam by being around some Muslims in an Islamic state, because your ideas on what Muslim peoples are like and what Islam is like is massively incorrect. I personally don't like or favour any religion but at least if I'm going to voice an opinion on one I'll get my facts straight first.

I agree mondo

That was another example of ignorance and distortion of peoples to make themselves feel they are true followers. God help us if the intolerant and/or ignorant of the both religions gain power.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Chivas

I agree mondo

That was another example of ignorance and distortion of peoples to make themselves feel they are true followers. God help us if the intolerant and/or ignorant of the both religions gain power.

What are you talking about?

[Blackdog_kt]

It's interesting how in the case of the middle east muslims you are so vocal, but when it comes to the balkans it's a vague statement that "kosovo and serbia had their differences".

If the US is so scared of Muslims i would expect a universally heavy-handed attitude against them. Since that's not the case, i don't really believe your issue are the Muslims per se, but the Muslims that don't serve your interests.

The inconsistency of your administrations is totally ridiculous. I wouldn't even mind if they said outright that they are out to preserve US interests (in any way they perceive them) or even if they said nothing at all, but trying to sugar coat their interventionist policy and continuous revision of everything that annoys them as some sort of humanitarian mission that we should all sympathise with and maybe even bleed for (yeah they wish), is infuriating to say the least.

I mean, how am i supposed to believe they really care about the rise of radical islam, when:

1)They themselves have funded such groups numerous times in the past (Bin Laden against USSR in Afghanistan)

2) They are allied with countries that contain the bigger % of radical population (Saudi Arabia)

3) Threaten and attack only secular muslim countries, where the local dictatoship is 1000 times more effective than the US at containing the radicals (Iraq and Syria). There was no real radical threat under Saddam's rule, who coincidentally was also a western-backed leader to contain the rise of radicals in Iran. Seems like whenever someone in the west is scared, someone else in the middle east must either get bombed to the stone age or suffer a dictatorship and forced to fight his neighbors himself. The western countries that did so many great things in the past don't even want to do their own dirty laundry now.

4) Turn a blind eye to radical islamic groups in various well documented cases and even speak in public in their support (Chechen-Russian war, before the 9/11 attacks).

5) Use military violence to form not one but two unstable states that harbor radical groups smack in the middle of Europe's soft spot (Bosnia and Kosovo).

And most of the above, with total disregard to international law.

Sorry mates, i'm not buying it. The US administration doesn't have a beef with Muslims, it has a beef with anyone that's doesn't get along with their tune. Muslims have been in fact used as pawns to promote US interests, both for weakening USSR and Russia in Afghanistan and Caucasus, but also for subverting a possible rise of Europe as a financial power through the Balkan conflicts.

The reasons are very simple and nobody is an idiot, so they might as well come clean about it. A Europe with money but lack of natural reserves is a perfect match for a capitalist Russia that lacks money but has ample gas and oil to supply. And then nobody will play with them anymore. That's all the US policy makers do, make sure they don't become obsolete. The arguments about humanitarian reasons and promotion of democracy are in such a stark contrast to what they've done and still do in various parts of the world, that even a kindergarden student would be hard pressed not to think "wow, these guys must think i'm a total idiot".