Su26

[TUCKIE_JG52]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I'm sorry, but unlike you I'm not an armchair expert..

One thing is flying the formations like you see in the videos you posted, another is the video of the IL-2 aerobatics. Since you're an expert I'm sure that you've heard of concepts like propwash and turbulence, which aren't modelled in IL-2 (or better, they're in the code but not activated) and are massive on planes like the P-51.
A formation takeoff with P-51s like that of the IL-2 video is impossible to achieve, it's only stuff for jets. Let me show you what can happen in formation landings with taildraggers of that calibre..

Little arrogant, self-proclaimed experts like you should always check who they're measuring with before making comments on stuff they obviously don't know much about, if anything to avoid being humiliated with facts. Unbelievable..

Are you telling that propwash caused this accident? That's not what the FAA report proclaims in that concrete accident... did you read it?

The propwash is real, true, but it's also true that there are some ways of flying just out of it or minimise its effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxv8ySs6Yvk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBq1vhaeqYA

[TomcatViP]

Turbulences are not activated in the FM but propwash generated by one plane onto another is. At least OFFLINE IMHO

By the way I mentionned earlier the excellent Flight Unimited sim that had Propwash, turbulences, wind, rain, a finely tuned FM (for teh leagcy planes : Grop, Pits, SU26 ...) and a spectacular smooth full ATC never seen since anywhere else by myself.

That says a lot of what price we had to pay for nice graphics !

Pls Luthier if you ever happend to read this, bring us back to low polygons untextured world in your next patch !

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

Turbulences are not activated in the FM but propwash generated by one plane onto another is. At least OFFLINE IMHO

Tomcat, the propwash ingame is just a graphic thing I think and it's just a fraction of what it really is in RL.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Tomcat, the propwash ingame is just a graphic thing I think and it's just a fraction of what it really is in RL.

I understand what you said Stern. But I think that PW is both too complicated to be calculated by the FM and the amplitude of its effect being nearly cte (depending of angle ratio) it can be treated accuratly by only a graphic trick (eg : bank over or shaking). Just like turbulences (minus G ( hence speed)).

The prob with prop wash is that it add a tangencial component to the speed adding a third dimension to be fully calculated by the FM engine at each iteration.

End of OT speculations from me here

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

I understand what you said Stern. But I think that PW is both too complicated to be calculated by the FM and the amplitude of its effect being nearly cte (depending of angle ratio) it can be treated accuratly by only a graphic trick (eg : bank over or shaking). Just like turbulences (minus G ( hence speed)).

The prob with prop wash is that it add a tangencial component to the speed adding a third dimension to be fully calculated by the FM engine at each iteration.

End of OT speculations from me here

Yeah, Oleg mentioned it years ago though, he said there is a FM for propwash and wake turbulence, but it wasn't activated to "reduce the difficulty level" (read "it wasn't working properly").

Rise of Flight is very good for this, but I agree, we've got a long way to go in terms of FM, imagine when sims will be able to do this

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by TUCKIE_JG52

Are you telling that propwash caused this accident? That's not what the FAA report proclaims in that concrete accident... did you read it?

I haven't said it's propwash that caused the accident, all I was pointing at are the risks related to operating warbirds in unnecessary risky manoeuvres like formation takeoffs and landings. Believe me, I've read the report again and again cos I'm friends with one of their crew chiefs.

The propwash is real, true, but it's also true that there are some ways of flying just out of it or minimise its effect:

Yeah, these guys are not pushing 1650HP on a four bladed propeller though, there's quite a difference.

[TUCKIE_JG52]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I haven't said it's propwash that caused the accident, all I was pointing at are the risks related to operating warbirds in unnecessary risky manoeuvres like formation takeoffs and landings. Believe me, I've read the report again and again cos I'm friends with one of their crew chiefs.

Ok, then you already know that was not a formation landing. The second plane did not land for the correct runway, so he was not expecting anybody on its way.

There's some difference between a "if you try to land in formation you'll crash" and "he was not landing in formation and found another plane ahead (at less speed)".

Lined up takeoff may be a problem, I agree, but landing... you land at idle!


Anyway, we were debating about having aerobatic planes in CoD...

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by TUCKIE_JG52

Ok, then you already know that was not a formation landing. The second plane did not land for the correct runway, so he was not expecting anybody on its way.

There's some difference between a "if you try to land in formation you'll crash" and "he was not landing in formation and found another plane ahead (at less speed)".

I can't comment on this any longer on a public forum, PM me if you want to know more.

Lined up takeoff may be a problem, I agree, but landing... you land at idle!

Anyway, we were debating about having aerobatic planes in CoD...

Man, we do 2 ship take-offs with the mustangs, but NEVER attempt formation landings, it's a very very very risky business, a million things can go wrong in a big engined taildragger when coming down for landing, the last thing you want is another big plane like yours nearby. They don't chop the throttle until they're flaring, they need to be ready for a go-around and avoid torque stall.

[TUCKIE_JG52]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I can't comment on this any longer on a public forum, PM me if you want to know more.

Thanks, I have my own fonts...

Man, we do 2 ship take-offs with the mustangs, but NEVER attempt formation landings, it's a very very very risky business, a million things can go wrong in a big engined taildragger when coming down for landing, the last thing you want is another big plane like yours nearby. They don't chop the throttle until they're flaring, they need to be ready for a go-around and avoid torque stall.

Ok, that's a procedure thing, agreed.