Is there any chance that the P-47 load-out can be corrected to 2x1000lb and 1x500lb?

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by JtD

API was neither rare nor really late war, but certainly no common early war ammo either.

A belting change for the .50 would definitely help to improve realism for US warbirds, even if it did not include API, the currently belting plainly sucks.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here but I remember a discussion back several years ago about .50cal belting and there was a new type of API/APIT ammo introduced in 1944 and in to 1945 that was supposed to be more effective against jet fighters and jet fuel and apparently it turned out the new rounds were more effective in general as well so it was widely adopted. Or at least that was what was written.

I'd definitely support a change in the belting. I have no idea what impact it would have overall but I know it's sort of wonky right now. It even has a .50cal HE round which at best was experimental... I suspect it's there to try and compensate for some sort of modeling deficiency? I don't really know.

[ElAurens]

Those that use HSFX already know how much better the correct belting for the US M2 .50 Browning works.

Just sayin.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Those that use HSFX already know how much better the correct belting for the US M2 .50 Browning works.

Just sayin.

Any idea if the values on the bullet types were changed or just the belting itself? Curious.

[ElAurens]

No clue about that, just the API APIT belting.

[Grach]

After doing some digging in various books & pamphlets it seems the following .50 BMG rounds were available in WW2:

(In rough chronological order of introduction.)

Ball (B) M2 (mild-steel core) 46g, 858m/s replaced earlier ball (lead cored) rounds and was available pre-war. Mainly used for training during the war although early on in the Pacific it seems to have been used.

Armour Piercing (AP) M2 (hard-steel core) 45.88g, 885m/s proof required penetration of 22mm RHA plate at 91m. Available pre-war, it was used extensively throughout the war until completely supplanted by M8 API.

Incendiary (I) M1 (Phosphorous, mild-steel core) 41g, 901m/s contained 2g of white phosphorous. Available pre-war, widely used until M8 API appears and then to a lesser extent except in Pacific.

Tracer (T) M10 (lead core) or M17 (mild-steel core) 41.67g, 873m/s it was observed that at ranges under 91m the burning trace had a similar incendiary effect as that of the early .30 cal (phosphorous - not Dixon-De Wilde type) Incendiary round. Both available pre-war, mostly replaced by M20 APIT and M21 HT.

Armour Piercing Incendiary (API) M8 (IM fill hard-steel core) 42g, 888m/s contained 0.9g IM (Incendiary Metal) compound. This burned far more fiercely than phosphorous and was estimated to be 2x as effective on a weight for weight basis. M8 API proof required minimum 90-95% of the performance of both the M2 AP and M1 I rounds. This was a pre-war design and was hurriedly put into production after combat reports from Europe were analysed in the first two years of the war. It started appearing in 1942 and was effectively standardised in Europe by the beginning of 1944.

Armour Piercing Incendiary Tracer (APIT) M20 (IM fill hard-steel core) 39.66g, 888m/s contained 0.9g IM (Incendiary Metal) compound. This was the trace partner of the M8 API. The trace cannister meant that the penetrator was shorter and lighter than the M8 API penetrator. It was expected that M20 APIT should penetrate with 90-95% of the M8 API performance however. Developed and issued alongside the M8 API.

Tracer "Headlight" (HT) M21 (lead core) 45.3g, 867m/s designed as a high-intensity tracer, holes in the jacket made the trace visible from all around. Designed and issued starting in 1943 for use by bomber defensive guns. The theory was that it would unnerve attacking enemy fighters as they would see the vivid tracers approaching them. Some incendiary effect noted at close ranges.

Incendiary "High-Intensity" (HI) M23 (IM fill mild-steel core) 33.18g, 1036m/s contained 5.8g of 'improved' IM (Incendiary Metal) compound. This bullet was designed to ignite jet-fuel and by all accounts was extremely destructive. Issue only started during late 1944 though and it was not widespread during the war. IIRC it was only issued in the ETO.

I have some information on belting compositions if anyone is interested.

Also of note is that the .50 BMG was tweaked during the war and it's rate of fire was routinely around 850rpm for unsynchronised installations at the end. (Compared to around 750rpm for pre & early war.) Synchronisation really slugged the rate performance though, dragging it down to around 500-550rpm! I can see why there were so few synchronised M2 installations, but I digress.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Grach

After doing some digging in various books & pamphlets it seems the following .50 BMG rounds were available in WW2:

(In rough chronological order of introduction.)

Ball (B) M2 (mild-steel core) 46g, 858m/s replaced earlier ball (lead cored) rounds and was available pre-war. Mainly used for training during the war although early on in the Pacific it seems to have been used.

Armour Piercing (AP) M2 (hard-steel core) 45.88g, 885m/s proof required penetration of 22mm RHA plate at 91m. Available pre-war, it was used extensively throughout the war until completely supplanted by M8 API.

Incendiary (I) M1 (Phosphorous, mild-steel core) 41g, 901m/s contained 2g of white phosphorous. Available pre-war, widely used until M8 API appears and then to a lesser extent except in Pacific.

Tracer (T) M10 (lead core) or M17 (mild-steel core) 41.67g, 873m/s it was observed that at ranges under 91m the burning trace had a similar incendiary effect as that of the early .30 cal (phosphorous - not Dixon-De Wilde type) Incendiary round. Both available pre-war, mostly replaced by M20 APIT and M21 HT.

Armour Piercing Incendiary (API) M8 (IM fill hard-steel core) 42g, 888m/s contained 0.9g IM (Incendiary Metal) compound. This burned far more fiercely than phosphorous and was estimated to be 2x as effective on a weight for weight basis. M8 API proof required minimum 90-95% of the performance of both the M2 AP and M1 I rounds. This was a pre-war design and was hurriedly put into production after combat reports from Europe were analysed in the first two years of the war. It started appearing in 1942 and was effectively standardised in Europe by the beginning of 1944.

Armour Piercing Incendiary Tracer (APIT) M20 (IM fill hard-steel core) 39.66g, 888m/s contained 0.9g IM (Incendiary Metal) compound. This was the trace partner of the M8 API. The trace cannister meant that the penetrator was shorter and lighter than the M8 API penetrator. It was expected that M20 APIT should penetrate with 90-95% of the M8 API performance however. Developed and issued alongside the M8 API.

Tracer "Headlight" (HT) M21 (lead core) 45.3g, 867m/s designed as a high-intensity tracer, holes in the jacket made the trace visible from all around. Designed and issued starting in 1943 for use by bomber defensive guns. The theory was that it would unnerve attacking enemy fighters as they would see the vivid tracers approaching them. Some incendiary effect noted at close ranges.

Incendiary "High-Intensity" (HI) M23 (IM fill mild-steel core) 33.18g, 1036m/s contained 5.8g of 'improved' IM (Incendiary Metal) compound. This bullet was designed to ignite jet-fuel and by all accounts was extremely destructive. Issue only started during late 1944 though and it was not widespread during the war. IIRC it was only issued in the ETO.

I have some information on belting compositions if anyone is interested.

Also of note is that the .50 BMG was tweaked during the war and it's rate of fire was routinely around 850rpm for unsynchronised installations at the end. (Compared to around 750rpm for pre & early war.) Synchronisation really slugged the rate performance though, dragging it down to around 500-550rpm! I can see why there were so few synchronised M2 installations, but I digress.

Thanks for digging that up. It's the M23 improved incendiary that I was referencing before. Couldn't for the life of me remember what it was called.

[Grach]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Thanks for digging that up. It's the M23 improved incendiary that I was referencing before. Couldn't for the life of me remember what it was called.

No problem.
At the risk of hijacking this into a .50 cal thread, I will post the original Il-2 Sturmovik game ammo data for the .50 BMG.
Mass is in kg
Speed is m/s (v0)
Power appears to be mass of explosive/incendiary material in kg. (I have no idea if this is 'standardised' or not. e.g. IM was 2x as effective gram for gram as plain phosphorous and different explosives vary in their energy yield per gram.)My notes/whinges are in italics.

Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP
(Belt composition is unlike anything I've seen in US manuals and documents, presumably a Soviet belting?)

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002
(Presumably this is meant to be M20 APIT. Mass should be 0.03966, speed should be 888, power should be 0.0018 - that is 0.0009 of IM @ x2 efficiency, they may have added 0.0002 for the trace material as well, then the power actually looks okay. Overall, not bad for an M20 representation.)

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0
(M2 AP would be mass = 0.04588, speed = 885 power = 0. So not too far off the mark either.)

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148
(Okay, this is the WTF? moment! There was no US HE round for .50 BMG in or before WW2. The only thing I can think of is that this is a Soviet 12.7mm MDZ-3 HE bullet loaded into a BMG case. Apparently this did happen as L-L ammunition was also supplied as components. So, no US equivalent for this!)

************************************************** *******

I'm wondering if these data are all for Soviet 12.7mm ammunition types actually, as the weights are heavier and the velocities are a little lower than is usual for .50 BMG. Which is about right for 12.7x108mm...

Hmm.

Hopefully TD can use some of this data if they care to as it would be nice to have the correct ammo types.

Maybe we should start a .50 ammo thread... I can see it now. Out of the woodwork they will come, the lovers and the haters...
Perhaps not then.