BOB a mistake ? --- The Battle of France

[Spectrum]

I don't think its permitted to post links but I found it browsing on the Sound Mod site which is talked about in one of the other threads. There's some interesting work going on there, even if its not officially sanctioned.

[Rama]

Originally Posted by Vigilant

Where'd you get that map from Spectrum?

What I see isn't a game map, but a google extract displayed in the briefing room (type of map used for briefing and minimap display).
Building a full map with all 3D objects of this size is a minimum of 2 years work for a team.
... and probably much more since they don't know the graphical engine limitation, nor some stuff like altitude coding (so have to rediscover everything by trial) and don't have the tools for 3D objects positionning.
We will be playing SoW:BoB long before this map will be event only partially done.

[Spectrum]

Its obviously progressed further than just a briefing map mock up. this is from the same source. You dont get pictures like these from Google.
To quote the post - "This is a view looking looking east towards Dordrecht along Haringvliet -- you have to use a little imagination. I might do the first ever IL-2 cross channel flight now." -- and according to a later post the flight was done. Doesn't seem to be much height data included yet, but its hard to tell when you are looking at the Netherlands, however looking at other mapwork which has been done issue of height data is not likely to be a problem. The ambition seems to be to produce a relatively unpopulated map, but with all the key geographic features included, so that it can be used for mission building. Looking at the earlier posts this seems to represent about one weeks intensive work. There are obvious flaws in the texturing but this doesn't claim to be ready for release. Its only a WIP screenshot.

[Rama]

height data WILL be a problem if they don't know (and they probably don't) the altitude coding in IL2.
I know what I'm talking about. I did the altitude map for Norway, Birmany and Bessarabie and the desert map that will be in 4.09.

They want to produce an "unpopulated map", so saving 95% of the map work... fine... but then it will take forever for mission creators to recreate a little bit of 3D environment to make mission interesting. I don't see how map can be used with a minimum of immersion without the towns and villages.

[Spectrum]

Rama

Your credentials are impeccable.
I particularly enjoy the Norway map and it looks like Bessarabie will be a good one too.
---- but you could try cutting those less expert than yourself a bit of slack.

[Asheshouse]

I've just finished reading two volumes of General Edward Spears book, "Assignment to Catastrophe" published in 1954. This is an excellent and very readable first hand account of the Battle of France from the perspective of the High Command. Spears, a former army officer, but then a member of parliament, was appointed by Churchill to provide liaison between himself and the French premier Reynaud. As such he was present at many key meetings which decided allied actions in the battle and was in personal contact with most of the key figures including Reynaud, Weygand, who was the commander in chief, and Petain.

Spears is very scathing of the efforts made by the French military to stem the disaster. His view is that the French forces were poorly lead and in particular the logistic support required to supply replacement and new equipment to the front line was almost non existent. The French seem to have been overcome by a collapse of moral and an air of defeatism in the commanders long before the troops on the ground were actually defeated.

The campaign seems to have ended with a complete collapse of order and discipline in the French army.

The last part of the book deals with de Gaulle arranging with Spears to be flown to England in order to continue resistance. Had he stayed in France it is likely that he would have been arrested by the Vichy Government, Weygand had already accused him of disobeying orders in seeking to transfer forces to Africa. Other members of the Reynaud government who contnued to advocate resistance were arrested and subsequently murdered by the Vichy government.

Weygand seems to have been a very unfortunate individual to have gained control of the armed forces at such a critical time. He was expressing defeatist views almost from the moment he took command and seems to have been more interested in maintaining his own reputation than in addressing the crisis. His total lack of attention to logistical support and apparent lack of effort in gathering together fragmented troops to form an effective reserve must remain as one of the principal reasons for the allies defeat.

Prior to reading these books I had thought that RAF involvement in France largely ended with Dunkirk. This is not the case though, since RAF squadrons continued to be based in France and additional squadrons carried out "day trips", refuelling and rearming in France, but returning to England at the end of the day. This whole campaign provides a wealth of scope for mission scenarios covering both air superiority tasks and ground attack, with the two opposing sides being reasonably well balanced in numbers if not in quality of aircraft.

My next read is Alistair Hornes "To Lose a Battle", which deals with much more of the tactical detail of the campaign.

[Rama]

There are many other books than just Spears one you should read to have a somewhat unbiased view of the French Campaign.
Some of his thoughts are correct (you find the same in other testimonies), other contradictory to other historian views.

The main responsability of the defeat are not to be searched On Weygand side. When he overtook the command, the disaster was allready there.
I agree French were poorly leaded, but the main responsibles were Gamelin and the HHQ, and on a lower level, army generals like Huntziger that were more concerned about their own cariers than being efficient in the field.

It's also false to say that "logistic support required to supply replacement and new equipment to front line was almost non existent"... it was ok until the retreat when everything get disorganized... and it was much better than other sectors, like transmission for example (based mostly on.... civilian phone and letters transmitted by motorbikers "estafettes"... it took around 3 days for an information to go from the front to the HQ...).
The biggest problem was.... there was no available replacement...
All the army strategical reserve had been used for the stupid northern move with objective too keep Netherland into the war (move that of course failed badly).
... you can't replace a company with emptyness, even if you have the railways, the trucks and the drivers...

[Asheshouse]

Has anyone got any information on the airfields which the luftwaffe operated from during the Battle of France?
A simple list of airfield locations would be useful to me.

[1.JaVA_Sharp]

Originally Posted by Asheshouse

Has anyone got any information on the airfields which the luftwaffe operated from during the Battle of France?
A simple list of airfield locations would be useful to me.

that's going to be interesting. I gathered some stuff from the first volume of the jg26 war diary and even those staffels moved, a lot.

[Spectrum]

Interesting WIP this. -- Dunkirk Harbour 1940