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#281
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I think the examples that you mentioned are bang on: Hastings, Trafalgar and Waterloo were the battles that determined a final victory of one of the sides, comparing them to the aerial battle of 1940 over the channel is a mistake, since they weren't sub-conflicts of a much wider war. After Great Britain declared war to Germany, V-E day was celebrated in 1945, not in 1940. In the grand scheme of things the aerial Battle of Britain was an early large scale attrition war, which ended up with similar results (apart for the thousands of civilian casualties on the British side) for both sides. No matter how hard you try to think of it, you can't really think of it as a victory. In hindsight, considering what happened afterwards and how the war ended, you can say that it was a contributing factor to the ultimate victory, but nothing suggests that, had Hitler decided so, the Luftwaffe couldn't have carried on operations against Great Britain for longer. Let's think of an example which might not be as emotionally linked as the BoB, think of the Battle of Kursk: Russia lost 3 times the number of men, vehicles and aircraft that they displaced, but they pushed back the Germans and gained territory. It's an awkward situation, cos it cost them a lot more in terms of men and resources, but they managed to push back the enemy and gain territory. With the Battle of Britain nothing changed. Last edited by Sternjaeger II; 09-20-2011 at 10:30 AM. |
#282
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It most certainly was a victory and a very, very important one. No Trafalgar wasn't a final battle if was very much a 'sub conflict' (to use your term), it was a battle where both (three sides really) sides took heavy losses (both during and after the battle) and one that safeguarded the UK from invasion. I think the comparison is very apt even down to the fact that Trafalgar is IMHO has greater 'cultural' recognition than Waterloo and Hastings. Regards Mike |
#283
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It was also a big confidence boost, Britain had 'stood firm', the first country in Europe to do so. I can, and do, think of it as a victory, quite small in the scheme of things, numbers wise, but vital. It was also a battle that favoured the defenders, for all sorts of reasons, not least The Channel, but we've had that for centuries, the Island Mentality. Quote:
I know we've got previous and I'd like to keep this civil, if it wasn't a draw, and the LW didn't achive their objective how can you say that it was'nt a victory, if not for Britain, then at the very least for Fighter Command. They did their job. The LW couldn't. |
#284
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Exactly, the Nazi's blitzed across europe as if nothing stood in their way, but got their first taste of resistance from us on our doorstep......but I think the penny has dropped....it wasn't a victory because of our efforts.....it was the tea, nothing seems to be more repugnant to a German than our love of tea, see how many times in this forum a German has tried to insult a brit over our tea drinking.....I guess it's like garlic for vampires.
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#285
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Guys, how can you possibly not see that after fighting for months over the Channel, the RAF paid a HUGE price in terms of aeroplanes and above all pilots, and so did Germany, but the Luftwaffe had its forces in Africa, Greece, Russia, Norway and mainland Europe? How can that be a defeat? It was a large scale skirmish, which produced almost equal losses and became relevant only when the USA joined and used England as a massive aircraft and troop carrier. Quote:
So what do you make of Pearl Harbour? Was that a Japanese victory? It was a part of a larger conflict. Quote:
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The RAF Fighter Command was put in front of an extremely steep learning curve, truth is that the RAF flew and fought with territorial advantage and had to employ only figthers, not bombers or other complex aircraft. The opposition they put up against the Germans was exemplar, but in some phases desperate. Still their determination together with the ineptitude of the German command meant that they could put up a fight with inferior machines and still be able to limit damage. In some way they were given a task somehow simpler than the German one: they knew what what they were defending, the Germans didn't really know what they were attacking. |
#286
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why, because it's in a movie DVD? It's witting testimony, direct accounts from the 60s there for you, not a book written by someone, but audio/video reference.
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I always get the impression that there's a weird conception of Victory here: take the Schneider Cup, did you win that one too? I'd be embarrassed to say yes to that. Quote:
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#287
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With all this talk of British inferior machines but territorial advantage and German leadership ineptitude blah.....we really just need to weigh up each sides wakness and strenght and it will pretty much equate to an even match....which the Germans came off worst from.
p.s. just to add I'm talking in that particular battle with the immediate forces involved and not the German military as a whole or their other conflicts at the time.
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#288
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Go out on the steets of America and ask where France is (theres even a funny video about it)....it doesn't mean the US as a whole is ignorant of geography.
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#289
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By the rules of the competition at the time....yes we did. Just out of interest, what exactly is the agenda here with trying to discredit every achievent Britain ever made?
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Intel Q9550 @3.3ghz(OC), Asus rampage extreme MOBO, Nvidia GTX470 1.2Gb Vram, 8Gb DDR3 Ram, Win 7 64bit ultimate edition Last edited by bongodriver; 09-20-2011 at 11:39 AM. |
#290
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1. I'm seriously going to leave the DVD, I think ignoring a vast amount of information and deciding that a DVD extra is the best source is just daft. 2. What has the Schneider trophy got to do with this? 3. Well the square, the preserved HMS Victory, the currency (up to quite recently), the Trafalgar day celebrations (widely celebrated on the 200th anniversary) , the beer... hmmmmmm beer etc, etc. Regards Mike |
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