IL2 and Sound Modding

[Rama]

Originally Posted by LW_lcarp

As per the EULA, anyone who has made a mission, pianted a skin, done a movie, or even played online in something other then a UBI game room is breaking the terms of the EULA.

Absolutly not:
- Making a mission is allowed by the mission editor who is a game feature. Using mission made by user is another game feature. It's like when you write a document with word and then read it with word.... using a software feature (so something which is not only part of the software, but wass also advertized as a game feature and one reason why people buy the game) is of course 100% legal
- use of user-made skin is also a game feature (also advertized and part of what you bought)
- playing online by IP is also a game feature, who was advertized and can be used legally. When you bought the game, you never signed an engagement to play trhough Ubi game Room).
For a movie.... it can be argued (as per "derived work" creation)

Considering the product you bought a user-license is protected by the French law about intellectual property, yes Qtim tools and modders that use them could legally be sued (but nobody can know what would be the court decision)
.... BUT..... once this is said.... then nothing is said.
Because Ubi would never spend a Euro cent to enforce intellectual property on a game which is commercially dead (or near to be)
... So neither Qtim, nor any modder will be sued
... So all this "legal debate" is useless and don't help in any way to solve the problem (which is the integrity of the online play).

Morality is another thing.... but turning the debate in a "good vs Evil" wont help more.

Now to answer Jasonbirder

Why would there need to be an "official" nod? Every single Flight Simulator, no wait...let me not narrow it down every single flight, combat, naval, racing etc etc simulator has been modified by its community...

Because official control is the only way to assure centralized quality control.
IL2 has also been highly modified (planes, maps, etc...) by the community... but under control.
Yes, there wasn't "free modding" during 6 years... and was it to its detriment?
The fact that IL2 today is the most succesfull combat flight sim ever... and this 6 years after the start and without "free modding", is a proof of the contrary.
Some say that would have been even better with "free modding"... but the reality is that nobody knows (and having know CFS world and other "free modded" combat fligth sim, I highly doubt it would have been the case).

And lastly for Lexx (even if he was allready responded in other threats...)
NO, offliners didn't pay for onliner stuff. They, as the onliners, paid for what was in the box.... nothing more and nothing less. Everything was written on the box and well advertized, so if they didn't want to have online server capability, they had the choice to avoid buying the box.... but Bearcat answered better than I do.

Now we could maybe go back on the only real concern (since now "free modds" are part of IL2 world): how can we secure online play again?

... at this point (that was reached allready long ago, as presented by Bearcat and others) pure offliners could just leave the debate.... since online play integrity is absolutly not their concern.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by Rama

Absolutly not:

Because official control is the only way to assure centralized quality control.
IL2 has also been highly modified (planes, maps, etc...) by the community... but under control.
Yes, there wasn't "free modding" during 6 years... and was it to its detriment?
The fact that IL2 today is the most succesfull combat flight sim ever... and this 6 years after the start and without "free modding", is a proof of the contrary.
Some say that would have been even better with "free modding"... but the reality is that nobody knows (and having know CFS world and other "free modded" combat fligth sim, I highly doubt it would have been the case).

And lastly for Lexx (even if he was allready responded in other threats...)
NO, offliners didn't pay for onliner stuff. They, as the onliners, paid for what was in the box.... nothing more and nothing less. Everything was written on the box and well advertized, so if they didn't want to have online server capability, they had the choice to avoid buying the box.... but Bearcat answered better than I do.

Now we could maybe go back on the only real concern (since now "free modds" are part of IL2 world): how can we secure online play again?

... at this point (that was reached allready long ago, as presented by Bearcat and others) pure offliners could just leave the debate.... since online play integrity is absolutly not their concern.

Very well said... I just disagree with the higlighted part.... I think history has shown us very very clearly what happens to online play when modding is allowed.. that is the reason why so many online flyers are bemoaning the lost of integrity of the sim.. which was a major draw... believe me... if CFS 3 had not been a mod fest... and yes, some of the mods were very well done.. but there was a lot.. tons in fact.. of pure cr@p to wade through to find the good stuff... and if CFS3 had had the same integrity as FB I am willing to wager that a lot more folks would be flying it still... For many of the simmers who came here.. especially in the past 4 years or so I bet that the fact that the code was un moddable was a very strong draw... Coming from Janes, EAW, any of the CFS series or any other highly moddable sim where online play became like that box of chocolates Mrs. Gump talked about.

What Billfish was saying is the same thing that Rama is saying..... Not that the opinions of onliners do not count in the sense that they are literally worthless, which is how many of the offliners took her comments, but that the solution will not come from them.. because they have repeatedly said over and over and over that online play and the integrity of said play means very little to them, hence forth their opinions have little merit from a solution standpoint.

This sim wouldn't be as popular as it is now had it been moddable from day one... and for any offliner to insinuate that they have paid for "online stuff" is d@mn near textbook Orwellian. Like Rama said... the onliners paid for the same things the offliners did.... whatever version they got.... and they DID NOT pay for all the same things that the onliners DID NOT pay for... all those great free patches over the years.

And I guarantee you that for all the talk.. as soon as any kind of mod detector/defeater/definer comes along, whether it is scalable or not... meaning settable on the server side from allowing all mods to allowing all but FM/DM/Weps mods to allowing stock IL2 ONLY.... the hack crowd.. not neccessarily the same ones who are doing or benifitting friom the mods.. but the ones who busted the door in the first place, will be all over it... and many of those nice folks who ...only fly offline anyway will as well..... Time will tell.....

[LEXX]

The relative numbers of Offline/Online play customers have changed over the years, possibly to a greater Online proportion. This is crazyivan's conjecture. Before today, back over the life of the sim, Oleg's quotation of 95% of paying customers being Offline players stands.

Bearcat (emphasis in bold ~LEXX)::

There you go again... I have yet to see that silly simplification anywhere in this 111 page debate... and "let's customize this or mod that for optional use only." !!??? That is rich man... yeah..... real rich... If it were really that simple this thread would be on page 2 by now. Yeah.. lets have that option to put a 25lb spit in a Mk5.. or better yet the FM of an La-7 on a Mustang.. so we can fix it... yeeeahhhhhhh that's the ticket.... let's fix 'em all....!!!

Is that what YOU are modding? For Shame Bear!

We will just remind you again that "modding" also means things other than aircraft modding -- greater Smoke and Fire visibility, creating more historical runways and skinning runways, etc... It took you "2 years" to admit this at the western publisher's forum, but when you did it was like a breath of fresh air.

--

Bearcat::

Everyone who bought the sim paid for it's developement.... and each individual... unless he bought multiple copies... paid the same price give or take adjustments for region and time of purchase relative to release of whatever version we are talking about..

Correct! Rama also failed to look at the customers in greater detail that a developer/publisher must consider. We shall review...


Say a jar of marbles has 95 red marbles, and 5 blue marbles, for a total of 100 red and blue marbles.

We could claim the jar has red and blue marbles, and we would be correct! We would also be missing more detailed information about the jar's contents -- relative numbers of red and blue marbles.

Offliners and Onliners each paid for each box that each purchased.
Offliners in their vastly greater numbers paid for the sim's development.

This is a simple analogy. A far better point was made by an honest Online player poasting at simhq about 2 years ago...

If not for the Offline base, we'd all be paying 12$ a month to fly.

[Bearcat]

Yes Lexx you are right about one thing.. this whole line of reasoning you are on is simple....

Look I know some of those mods are good things that folks have wanted for a long time... that is why I don't go around trashing guys who use them... and not only that I still have a great deal of respect for some of the guys I know who use the mods.. because I know that they will not use them where they aren't wanted.. but until online play can be secured from those who do not have the same values, as much as I might want to try out some of them.. and I do.. I will not.... and I do that because it is right for me.... I can't judge YOU... or anyone else who prefers to do otherwise.... or anyone else who takes a more adamant stance than I do.. I think it is silly to not expect people to jump on this bandwagon at all.... but for you to come here with your no speak.. I cant even call it double speak... it is just a non point. If this whole issue was a debate, there might be others in the debate on the pro mod side who would have at least some points.. but your arguments barely qualify as arguments on the matter. I can tell the difference between valid arguments in a given debate and the Bullwinkle logic... You know.... "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.... nothin up muh sleeve..... PRESTO!!"

NON sense... and as for the if not for the offline base we'd be paying $12 to fly online.... BS... this sim has been a hit online from day one... because it was designed that way..... Hyperlobby was icing on the cake and I am sure that Oleg didn't say "Hey Jiri can you... help a brutha out..... " Jiri did it because he could and he wanted to.... but we still had UBI... and we could still connect IP to IP... Your whole offline vs online due to numbers thing is not even a hose of cards... it is built entirely on vapor.....

The bottom line for me is that I hope that a fix comes soon.. one that will be at least complex enough and scalable enough so that none but the ones who have nothing but cheating in mind will want to try to break it. If the fix is scalable then all those who claim to just want to "customize this or mod that for optional use only" will be able to do so.. and those who want to make sure that the Spitfire that shoots them down is a legit Spit flown well and not some hacked up chump chariot can also do so... because you know.. the onliners may be a minority (though your numbers are laughable..) but they still have just as much if not more of a "right" to fair and level online play as you claim you do to mod it as you see fit.

[Razer]

What is this continuous arguing achieving?

Why not lock the thread and BAN all talk of the mods? I mean obviously NO-ONE here is mature enough to discuss things civily!

[Bearcat]

I thought I was quite civil...