Thread about the 109

[CaptainDoggles]

Not sure I'd personally describe it as a chandelle, which is supposed to be minimum-radius. The spiral climbs I was describing are very wide.

[NedLynch]

You can also order a print version of the book "In Pursuit", I did.
It covers all aspects of air combat, giving you a good perspective about what is important. Fancy tricks and maneuvers are pretty much the last items on the list of important things, energy states, situational awareness and your own state of mind are much larger contributers to being shot down or shooting someone down.
And know what you and your aircraft can do and what you cannot do and what the opponent can and cannot do, as stated above you need to make them play your game and never play theirs.
I like "fight like a wuss", my motto exactely

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by NedLynch

You can also order a print version of the book "In Pursuit", I did.
It covers all aspects of air combat, giving you a good perspective about what is important. Fancy tricks and maneuvers are pretty much the last items on the list of important things, energy states, situational awareness and your own state of mind are much larger contributers to being shot down or shooting someone down.
And know what you and your aircraft can do and what you cannot do and what the opponent can and cannot do, as stated above you need to make them play your game and never play theirs.
I like "fight like a wuss", my motto exactely

There's something to be said for learning some of the maneuvers early. One of the first things I did when I got il2fb was learn to fly a flat scissors. That piece of advice I read on SimHQ ("If you see him moving out to your 3oc-9oc line, you're winning") still sticks in my head every time I fly it. It's of course important to learn when to fly it and when not to fly it, but ignoring the evasive maneuvers is a mistake IMHO.

I mean let's face it. Everybody gets bounced sometimes.

[NedLynch]

I didn't mean to say don't care for or practice maneuvers, of course you have to know them and be proficient in them. But ONLY knowing that will get you nowhere.
Understand all the other things I mentioned and at times what to do when will come to you even in a sort of improvisational way due to the fluidity and miriad of situations in combat.
Practice maneuvers and combined with your proficiency in SA, comparing and reading energy states and knowing your aircraft's and your own capabilities will give you a good idea what maneuver to employ in a given situation or a variation of that maneuver adapted to the situation (i.e. improvisation).
Flat scissors or scissors with a vertical element? Corkscrew, rope-a-dope, chandelle (I like that one, simple and effective to stash up some energy and put yourself maybe in a good attack/bounce position on an unweary enemy)?
Maybe sometimes it's just throwing some angles that will defeat the enemy.
Like the book says, the simpler and less energy consuming the better, unless of course you have someone right on your six, then the appropriate action is......to panic.

[MadBlaster]

I think this thread is about the cloddy 109 gunsight? I dislike it a lot, but will

try to be constructive since the only way I’ll ever fly CLoD again is if it gets

better than UP3. And the 109 gunsight is on the list of things that need

fixing imho.


Anyway, in old IL-2 109 “gunsight view” you have a nice round crosshairs in a

round circle. When you find yourself in a flat or rolling scissors, you can line

up your deflection distance for a snap shot very nicely. One radius, two

radius, whatever the case may be. We all learned deflection shooting in

IL-2 original? But in CLoD, try doing that in "straps off" view. It is an

exercise in frustration because you lose your peripheral vision on the bandit

and without lead time, you can’t pull lead distance for the snap shot! Also

it does this anthropromorphic time delay thing to simulate your head bending

down to look into the sight. It feels a bit like entering a tunnel (Luthier’s

favorite movie Vertigo comes to mind). So the question I have is, “why is

there a "straps off" view in the game if is so dysfunctional?” The answer I

suppose is to simulate real life tracking shots. But let's face the gaming

reality here. Everyone is using headtracking and most don’t want to be at a

disadvantage when they play online. So they blow off the "straps off" view

altogther because they don’t want to risk losing the SA in online gameplay.

Perfectly rational gaming behavior. So, as has been documented thouroughly

on this board, they either set up a custom profile/custom center in their

head tracking software to beat this “realism” piece of the game and center

up the recticle with the cockpit asymetric and unbalanced looking (my

personal solution) or they just try to get a feel for shooting in the default

view by relying on tracers, lots of practice moving their head in the right

spot and/or guesstimation. The evidence of this is in the 109 videos that

are posted on this board. I was lmao watching a Freycinet video of the

struggle he was going through for a very simple tracking shot on a bomber

six o clock. Laughing because I understand his frustration and noticed he

did not use “straps off” view. This is understandable to me though. Watch

his video “109 against the Wellingtons” on YouTube as he struggles zooming

in and out a bunch of times trying to get the recticle squared up in the

window at the expense of SA (@ 4:20 he says “come on smooth

movements!”) and then along comes a 109 friendly head-on and takes out

his right aileron! Anyway, that’s my take. This is a major bug in the 109.

The “straps off” doesn’t work for gameplay. It is being ignored for good

reason and I hope they get rid of it. We already know the old way works

fine and have years of proof and millions and millions of red Enemy Aircraft

Destroyed. Let's use that old way.

Freycinet’s video (“come on smooth movements”)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HJ5Z...er_profilepage

Edit: please don't take bogus cheapshot at old IL-2 and bring up the ki-43 because it is actually perfectly functional. At wide/default view, the gunsight tube is round and stationary with the crosshairs visible inside when the gunsight cap is off. So, you can still do snapshot and judge distance with the crosshairs. so now you learned something today.

[NedLynch]

The loosen strap view may need fixing, but as you mentioned people are finding ways to work around it.

Love the videos from Soren btw.

However the thread is named the 109 thread, so pretty much everything about the 109 should be permissable, not only the gunsight topic.

[CaptainDoggles]

I dunno guys, until about a week ago I didn't even know the seatbelts function existed.

I fly the 109 on full real with 6dof trackir and have no issues keeping the ring in view.

I was actually just asked about this via PM and I was saying that for me the trick is to unload when you fire. Point the nose where the target will be in a few seconds, center the stick, and then fire as he flies through your gunsight (snapshot). It's a different method than pulling lead on your target, using the elevators to keep it there, and firing (tracking shot).

It's much harder to keep the ring in view if you load factor isn't staying constant, so why put more work on yourself?

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Point the nose... where the target will be in a few seconds, center the stick, and then fire as he flies through your gunsight (snapshot). It's a different method than pulling lead on your target, using the elevators to keep it there, and firing (tracking shot).

Lol. Point the nose, what without the elevators? How many beers tonight guy?

To Luthier!!! I hope you read this thread so far. NO ONE here is using "loosen straps" view. So maybe consider making it a useful view and change it to old IL-2 "gunsight view"? Is it worth doing a poll guys or do you even care? Or is CLoD too far gone. Mabye it's just not going to happen?

[CaptainDoggles]

Re-read what I posted.

Point the nose where the target will be in a few seconds, center the stick, and then fire as he flies through your gunsight (snapshot).

You point the nose and then you unload the airframe for a snapshot. That is different from constantly pulling G's while you fire for a tracking shot.

[Blackdog_kt]

I think they should just change the view to do what it says: tighten straps for less head-shake during violent maneuvers at the expense of how far back you can look, loosen straps to look around at the expense of more bouncing during high-G maneuvers.


As for how to keep the gunsight in view, going back to the IL2 system is as much an artificial and "gamey" solution as the implementation we currently have and i wouldn't support it.

Better to give people a feature like RoF where they can save preset views for each aircraft so that people without head tracking can quickly lean into the gunsight (those who use head tracking already can solve this) and be done with it. It would also be useful for other things, like setting up a custom compass view for the RAF aircraft, or getting a look at hard to access gauges and controls in bombers without having to use the mouse or bend our necks around with head tracking.