Thread about the 109

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Binnies

I actually did download in pursuit from this forum blackdog but I've yet to read it. I"ll be sure to read it soon. When doing high or low yoyos I should try and maintain speed right? Often when I do them my speeds seems to drop quite a bit (sometimes resulting in a stall even) because I tend to turn quite tight.

A high yo-yo is used to prevent yourself from overshooting. If you're going to overshoot you need to slow down, but simply cutting throttle isn't good from an energy perspective, so what you do is nose up to trade in airspeed for altitude. This slows you down, but allows you to cash in your saved-up altitude for speed at a later point.

A low yo-yo is the opposite; you use it to increase closure on a target. So you dive to gain speed and then end up slowing down at a later point (but closer to your target).

So no, you should not expect to maintain speed in a high or low yo-yo maneuver. If you're stalling at the top of a high yo-yo you're probably either letting yourself get too slow (stop climbing a little sooner) or pulling too tight on the stick (think "graceful"). Possibly both.

Generally speaking what speed would be good for engaging other aircraft? Should you run when you get below a certain speed or something?

When I'm over enemy territory looking for targets I tend to cruise in the 350-450 km/h range. It's about finding a balance. If you're too fast you'll overspeed if you try to dive on a bandit below you. If you're too slow you might get caught by a higher or co-altitude enemy that you didn't spot.

During combat I'm usually too preoccupied with keeping my eyes on the bandit to have more than a vague idea of how fast I'm going, really only looking at the airspeed indicator when I get slow, to make sure I'm at best climb speed or best turn speed.

Sadly there is no magic speed under which you should disengage and above which you are safe. Air combat is highly highly situational so there's no one-size-fits-all answer. Rather than disengaging when you get to a certain speed, think of it in terms of having or not having the advantage. Fight like a wuss: if you lose the advantage it's time to retreat. Only people eager to be shot down engage on even terms.

If you read that post of mine I linked to I talk a lot about doing sustained climbs; those are usually at 200-250 km/h IAS which is pretty slow. But when I'm performing those maneuvers and using that tactic my mental state is one of being on the attack, not on defense. I'm above my prey, patiently biding my time until conditions are right to strike.

With the 109 you should avoid tight turns preferring wider turns right? So you keep your speed up.

Sometimes a tight turn is called for if it'll get you the firing opportunity or get you out of somebody's sights, but generally speaking yes you should prefer wide, fast turns because the more G's you pull the more induced drag you develop, and therefore the more energy you burn.

What you don't want to do is get into a flat turning contest with the RAF fighters. The Spitfire and Hurricane both turn very well in the horizontal plane, so why play the other guy's game? Make him play yours and fight in the vertical.

[CaptainDoggles]

Not sure I'd personally describe it as a chandelle, which is supposed to be minimum-radius. The spiral climbs I was describing are very wide.

[NedLynch]

You can also order a print version of the book "In Pursuit", I did.
It covers all aspects of air combat, giving you a good perspective about what is important. Fancy tricks and maneuvers are pretty much the last items on the list of important things, energy states, situational awareness and your own state of mind are much larger contributers to being shot down or shooting someone down.
And know what you and your aircraft can do and what you cannot do and what the opponent can and cannot do, as stated above you need to make them play your game and never play theirs.
I like "fight like a wuss", my motto exactely

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by NedLynch

You can also order a print version of the book "In Pursuit", I did.
It covers all aspects of air combat, giving you a good perspective about what is important. Fancy tricks and maneuvers are pretty much the last items on the list of important things, energy states, situational awareness and your own state of mind are much larger contributers to being shot down or shooting someone down.
And know what you and your aircraft can do and what you cannot do and what the opponent can and cannot do, as stated above you need to make them play your game and never play theirs.
I like "fight like a wuss", my motto exactely

There's something to be said for learning some of the maneuvers early. One of the first things I did when I got il2fb was learn to fly a flat scissors. That piece of advice I read on SimHQ ("If you see him moving out to your 3oc-9oc line, you're winning") still sticks in my head every time I fly it. It's of course important to learn when to fly it and when not to fly it, but ignoring the evasive maneuvers is a mistake IMHO.

I mean let's face it. Everybody gets bounced sometimes.

[NedLynch]

I didn't mean to say don't care for or practice maneuvers, of course you have to know them and be proficient in them. But ONLY knowing that will get you nowhere.
Understand all the other things I mentioned and at times what to do when will come to you even in a sort of improvisational way due to the fluidity and miriad of situations in combat.
Practice maneuvers and combined with your proficiency in SA, comparing and reading energy states and knowing your aircraft's and your own capabilities will give you a good idea what maneuver to employ in a given situation or a variation of that maneuver adapted to the situation (i.e. improvisation).
Flat scissors or scissors with a vertical element? Corkscrew, rope-a-dope, chandelle (I like that one, simple and effective to stash up some energy and put yourself maybe in a good attack/bounce position on an unweary enemy)?
Maybe sometimes it's just throwing some angles that will defeat the enemy.
Like the book says, the simpler and less energy consuming the better, unless of course you have someone right on your six, then the appropriate action is......to panic.

[MadBlaster]

I think this thread is about the cloddy 109 gunsight? I dislike it a lot, but will

try to be constructive since the only way I’ll ever fly CLoD again is if it gets

better than UP3. And the 109 gunsight is on the list of things that need

fixing imho.


Anyway, in old IL-2 109 “gunsight view” you have a nice round crosshairs in a

round circle. When you find yourself in a flat or rolling scissors, you can line

up your deflection distance for a snap shot very nicely. One radius, two

radius, whatever the case may be. We all learned deflection shooting in

IL-2 original? But in CLoD, try doing that in "straps off" view. It is an

exercise in frustration because you lose your peripheral vision on the bandit

and without lead time, you can’t pull lead distance for the snap shot! Also

it does this anthropromorphic time delay thing to simulate your head bending

down to look into the sight. It feels a bit like entering a tunnel (Luthier’s

favorite movie Vertigo comes to mind). So the question I have is, “why is

there a "straps off" view in the game if is so dysfunctional?” The answer I

suppose is to simulate real life tracking shots. But let's face the gaming

reality here. Everyone is using headtracking and most don’t want to be at a

disadvantage when they play online. So they blow off the "straps off" view

altogther because they don’t want to risk losing the SA in online gameplay.

Perfectly rational gaming behavior. So, as has been documented thouroughly

on this board, they either set up a custom profile/custom center in their

head tracking software to beat this “realism” piece of the game and center

up the recticle with the cockpit asymetric and unbalanced looking (my

personal solution) or they just try to get a feel for shooting in the default

view by relying on tracers, lots of practice moving their head in the right

spot and/or guesstimation. The evidence of this is in the 109 videos that

are posted on this board. I was lmao watching a Freycinet video of the

struggle he was going through for a very simple tracking shot on a bomber

six o clock. Laughing because I understand his frustration and noticed he

did not use “straps off” view. This is understandable to me though. Watch

his video “109 against the Wellingtons” on YouTube as he struggles zooming

in and out a bunch of times trying to get the recticle squared up in the

window at the expense of SA (@ 4:20 he says “come on smooth

movements!”) and then along comes a 109 friendly head-on and takes out

his right aileron! Anyway, that’s my take. This is a major bug in the 109.

The “straps off” doesn’t work for gameplay. It is being ignored for good

reason and I hope they get rid of it. We already know the old way works

fine and have years of proof and millions and millions of red Enemy Aircraft

Destroyed. Let's use that old way.

Freycinet’s video (“come on smooth movements”)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HJ5Z...er_profilepage

Edit: please don't take bogus cheapshot at old IL-2 and bring up the ki-43 because it is actually perfectly functional. At wide/default view, the gunsight tube is round and stationary with the crosshairs visible inside when the gunsight cap is off. So, you can still do snapshot and judge distance with the crosshairs. so now you learned something today.

[NedLynch]

The loosen strap view may need fixing, but as you mentioned people are finding ways to work around it.

Love the videos from Soren btw.

However the thread is named the 109 thread, so pretty much everything about the 109 should be permissable, not only the gunsight topic.