Some considerations about the FM purists...

Originally Posted by Redroach

realism is the very thing that makes or breaks Maddox's products. They're not, nor have they been, particularly attractive in other aspects.

well I think the mission editor was quite a good tool when it came out and was updated, don't you think? Realism was important, yet they never quite managed to nail it the way it's supposed to be: the planes feel stiff, rigid; the bullet ricochet was inserted only by modders; important things like wake turbulence were left out for the sake of playability..

Regarding the 350 vs 355 mph issue: That's the other side of the medal. Everybody just feels to be genuinely entitled to be the test pilot and tends to stir up major trouble just because something doesnt 'feel' right. I think this needs to settle down a bit. As Il-2 grew older, such unqualified comments became rarer. Though there's still the occasional 'spit super plane' rant...

hehehe the "feel" thing always makes me chuckle, like people who say what's the right and wrong looking tracer without having seen one in real life.

Truth is that only a handful of us ever flew in a small plane, and of this handful even less flew on planes from the era, so to give a correct statement of what feels "wrong" or "right" should be just a certain number of us (or external contributors), but as usual there seems to be little or no interest in the forum members experience.. A collaboration to improve results is feasible, but there needs to be the will for it from the devs, which doesn't seem to be there..

[MadBlaster]

Totally agree with OP. As long as the flight model is in the ballpark, I'm happy. I always thought one of the great things about IL-2 is learning the crap planes, being at a disadvantage, and then winning the fight. The excepetion would be the HS-129. In that case, just land it and bail when they start shooting, or get them to crash into you for the EAD. You die, he dies...it's a wash.

[Feathered_IV]

I agree that some people fixate on FM far too much. Yes it is a simulation, but wouldn't you like to switch your gun off of saftey or go to oxygen too? Well worth 2 seconds in the turn or 5km off the top, I reckon.

[Redroach]

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

I agree that some people fixate on FM far too much. Yes it is a simulation, but wouldn't you like to switch your gun off of saftey or go to oxygen too? Well worth 2 seconds in the turn or 5km off the top, I reckon.

umm... yes, actually, I'd like that

[skouras]

Interesting thread

[Blackdog_kt]

+1 to the OP, this

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

I agree that some people fixate on FM far too much. Yes it is a simulation, but wouldn't you like to switch your gun off of saftey or go to oxygen too? Well worth 2 seconds in the turn or 5km off the top, I reckon.

and this

Originally Posted by JG4_Helofly

IMO performance is very important in the game because we don't have some other important variables like fear, fatigue, performance drop due to wear etc. So it makes a huge difference if a plane is 5km/h to fast because the other player will push his plane to the limit and not let you go away until he catches you. No worry about fuel limitations or possible death or physical body limitations.

That's why 5 km/h can make the difference

I too want accurate FMs, but not only for the sake of FMs. They are important because i enjoy flying the aircraft just as much as i like fighting in them (especially in the new sim with all their control quirks and different systems).

On the other hand, during a combat scenario the FM is not the prime goal but a tool to achieve what's important in a bigger picture sense: accurate tactical considerations, constraints and consequences being forced on the player.

That's why i strongly advocated more complex CEM and systems management during the sim's development, it's just a part of those things that make up the whole picture that we want to achieve.

What kind of plane i'm flying, what kind of ride the enemy is in, what's my mission profile, what's my fuel and loadout (big thumbs up for the 1:1 map, no more loading 25% fuel and enjoying top performance while in gliding distance of home base), what's my objective, is my aircraft the better performer in the match-up, the one that handles easier or the one that is easier to operate (CEM and subsystems) and how do i use that to my advantage?===> a fusion of all that, some decision making and you get an idea of what it might have felt like being in their shoes back then.

The FM is a super important tool in that equation, but it's not the only worthy cause


In summary yes, let's have accurate FMs, it's a must. That doesn't mean we have to leave everything else to the wayside until they are 100% accurate, 98% will do. The rest is in the environment: if we have life-size instead of down-scaled maps to fly over and the damage model is "smart" enough to cause a sequence of failures (which it can, i've seen it in CoD and it's awesome), the rest of the puzzle pieces will fall together nicely.

After all, having accurate FMs still leads to completely inaccurate encounters if we change the environmental setting where they take place: a bunch of fighters with a range of a few hundred miles duking it out at tree top level and bingo fuel on a map which is 150x150km is hardly accurate.

[JG4_Helofly]

Maye it would help if there would be a performance difference of about + or - 3% for every plane every time you fly. So even if the enemy flys a slightly faster plane, you don't know if he has a good production model or not. You might even be equally fast with a very well build slower plane. In fact, that's what happened in RL.
At the moment, you can't run away from a slightly faster plane, because after a 10 min chase at sea level, he will catch you. Even if he is only 2 km/h faster. Same goes for climb and turn. This wouldn't happen in RL since they had to worry about other things then chasing someone for hours.
And that's why pure performance is more important in the game than in RL IMO.

[Widow17]

5 kph make a hughe difference i think, and yes the goal should be as realistic as possible, where do you draw the border if not? and I dont like fantasy planes

[Buchon]

Agree, I dont want fantasy planes in a simulator either.

I dont mind in Battlefield 3, but a Simulator is supposed to have simulation inside.

[JG4_Helofly]

IMO performance is very important in the game because we don't have some other important variables like fear, fatigue, performance drop due to wear etc. So it makes a huge difference if a plane is 5km/h to fast because the other player will push his plane to the limit and not let you go away until he catches you. No worry about fuel limitations or possible death or physical body limitations.

That's why 5 km/h can make the difference