I Want my 4.09 Spit FM's back.........

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Wutz

Depends what some define as accurate.....with some one has the feeling they read too many fantasy comics or are spoiled by Hollywood.

Indeed, and that goes for all planes. The OP has simply said they don't like the new handling, and an axis only flyer thinks that's funny, which I don't really understand.

Originally Posted by SEE

Bloody hell guys, I doubt anyone here has ever flown a Spitty or BF to say categorically wether the FM is accurate or not.

I doubt the programmers have ever flown one either. They have to base their decisions on a lot of the same information that some of the people here have access to.

It's simply a discussion about the differences between 4.09 and 4.10. Some people feel that the changes are for the better and others feel that may be they are not quite correct. People are free to express their views but it is infortunate that some threads just seem to decend into a war of words rather than be informative with a bit of witty banter thrown in for good measure.

Yes I agree. It's interesting to see what people think of the flight modelling of all the planes. It just doesn't make sense to me that someone who likes the game thinks it's laughable than people dislike the flight modelling of a plane that the axis pilot never flies.

Originally Posted by Oktoberfest

The Spit wasn't modelled correctly at all before 4.10m anyway. Magic E-Retention, 90° turns in less than one sec at 500 kph, no overheating, ability to keep dogfighting even if full of lead.... The examples are countless. Now at least, they are more close to real physics.

I've always had more luck continuing to fight after being shot when in a 109 or 190. I've found the Spit a lot more fragile the the German fighters.

BTW, I fly the 110 for already 4 years now, neraly exclusively.

So how are you in a good position to compare the modelling of different fighters?

[David603]

Originally Posted by Oktoberfest

The Spit wasn't modelled correctly at all before 4.10m anyway. Magic E-Retention, 90° turns in less than one sec at 500 kph, no overheating, ability to keep dogfighting even if full of lead.... The examples are countless. Now at least, they are more close to real physics.

BTW, I fly the 110 for already 4 years now, neraly exclusively. You sure need a lot of trim to have it fly level, and also to counter the torque of he engines. I got used to that. I think Spitfire pilots will just have to learn that too now.

Am not really complaining about the new Spitfire FMs, they seem quite reasonable to me, but I have a few issues with your description of the Spitfires flew before 4.10.

First, the E-Retention is not magic, it the result of having a relatively light plane with a large wing area and a reasonably powerful engine. A rare combination in fighters, and something none of the Luftwaffe birds have. Changes in 4.10 are to slightly increase the wing areas to real values, but also make the Spitfires slightly heavier, also in accordance with real values. Effect seems to be that E-Retention is slightly down, but it not a big difference.

Second, if you think Spitfires take damage well I think you need to try flying them yourself

Unfortunately, while altering the FMs, TD doesn't seem to have fixed the problem of the Spit25lbs being about 10mph too slow and missing about 15% of its climb rate at low altitude, but I won't make an issue of it.

[JG27_PapaFly]

I'm a lufty flyer, but i frequently fly spits against my squaddies in our training sessions.

IMO the new spits are a welcome challenge. Before the patch they were ridiculously easy to fly, i was feeling ashamed of flying them, but then the only reason i do it is to give my squaddies a difficult opponent.

However, I really don't like the trim issue.

There are two problems:
1) torque correction via the preset aileron trim is off
2) propwash correction via the preset rudder trim is also off: in a 1943 spitV i often must press the LEFT rudder to avoid sideslipping while climbing at 250kph.

Both trimtabs overcorrect, at full power the plane is neutral at ridiculously slow speeds.

Especially the overcorrected propwash negatively affects flying charcteristics:
imagine yourself in a shallow climb at 350kph. You boot a good amount of left rudder to avoid slipping. Now you enter a maximum performance turn at the same speed, and while pulling on the stick, the propellor-induced gyroscopic precession will pull the nose even further to the right, so you must boot almost full left rudder to avoid slipping. If you allow slipping, you'll stall out early. Overall, the trim issue makes the spit a rather unstable gun platform.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

Indeed, and that goes for all planes. The OP has simply said they don't like the new handling, and an axis only flyer thinks that's funny, which I don't really understand.

I doubt the programmers have ever flown one either. They have to base their decisions on a lot of the same information that some of the people here have access to.

Yes I agree. It's interesting to see what people think of the flight modelling of all the planes. It just doesn't make sense to me that someone who likes the game thinks it's laughable than people dislike the flight modelling of a plane that the axis pilot never flies.

I've always had more luck continuing to fight after being shot when in a 109 or 190. I've found the Spit a lot more fragile the the German fighters.
So how are you in a good position to compare the modelling of different fighters?

Look I am one of the guys who don't care if the plane if 5km/h faster than the real plane and so on: I'm perfectly aware that the margin of error of 5% is good enough.

But I'm one of those who likes to review the airplanes flying them in battle environments; I fled Spitfire a lot in training sessions and to balance online missions.
I become a Oleg's Spit-hater because of the great differences between this kind of plane and the other in IL2 (above all his counterparts). The Spitfires were incredible.

Then I think you have to understand if some pilots who really has resigned themself to fly a wierd Fw190 (the "bar" is only the peak of the iceberg in that plane, you'll see) now they find "relaxing" that the plane of their nightmare has been tuned down. After years of "luftwhiners" name calling...

You say that it's easier to survive in a 109 and 190: you're right because people must learn to fly the 109/190 the right way while noobs in the old spitfire model could still score many kills against average pilots and sometimes against veterans too since they don't think about their survival. Infact today I usually don't attack a spitfire at my same altitude. Of course there are exceptions like Fenrir and his teammates and one guy in TD (sorry can't remember the name in this moment) and maybe some others: they used the Spitfire in the way a warbird should be used (!energy fighting!) and could not be killed even if outnumbered.

So IMO this is a great patch since also the average Spitfire pilot has to learn the basics of air fighting.

My squad is used to fly training dogfights at 7km with SpitV vs 109F and the first day using the 4.10 Spitfire all the "Red" pilots were surprised and happy at the same time. The common exlamation was "FINALLY!".

Now I can return to love that plane in IL2 too (but Fenrir is right about those issues).

[JoeA]

You know, I really don't think the whining is going to stop with COD.

I do hope the Spit was made more realistic in any case.

[swiss]

Then I think you have to understand if some pilots who really has resigned themself to fly a wierd Fw190 (the "bar" is only the peak of the iceberg in that plane, you'll see) now they find "relaxing" that the plane of their nightmare has been tuned down. After year of "luftwhiners" calling...

You say that it's easier to survive in a 109 and 190: you're right because people must learn to fly the 109/190 the right way while noobs in the old spitfire model could still score many kills

Amen.

[Jumoschwanz]

If you lose a fight when you are flying a Spitfire in IL2, it is because you were either bounced or the other guy is a better pilot.

I trust that successive official patches to IL2 Sturmovik are generally for the better. If you want flight models that are poorly researched opinions and magic-wands then use one of the mod packs.

Or get into hacking and make your own magic MODs for IL2, then you and your buddies can start up a server for it, preach it as the gospel, further divide the community and sucker new IL2 pilots into your BS world.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

If you lose a fight when you are flying a Spitfire in IL2, it is because you were either bounced or the other guy is a better pilot.

I trust that successive official patches to IL2 Sturmovik are generally for the better. If you want flight models that are poorly researched opinions and magic-wands then use one of the mod packs.

Or get into hacking and make your own magic MODs for IL2, then you and your buddies can start up a server for it, preach it as the gospel, further divide the community and sucker new IL2 pilots into your BS world.

Ever used "dullknife" as an alias?

[Krt_Bong]

Since I have no real world data to compare to I can't speak to historical accuracy, but I have tried a couple of quick missions to find out for myself what the spit MkV 1942 and the 109G 1942 can do and despite the fact that the AI can pull more G's than you can I have seen that it is almost impossible to stall the 109, my joystick profile (i flew both a/c on the same one) is aprox. 16 32 65 88 100 100 100 100 for elevators. On the Spit I pulled an easy and a hard loop and it stalled before I got halfway thru the joystick travel at the top of the second and went thru some crazy manuver ending up in an inverted flat spin that I was immediately able to correct but, the 109 I did the same thing and pulled 1 1/2 loops before it started to shudder but it never completely departed. For some the fidelity of the joystick used may be a factor and I have a 2 year old X-52. I tried flying a 109 against another 109 and again the AI can do impossible manuevers to follow but I eventually shot him down. In Spit vs Spit again the AI does things that even though I stayed with him (Barely) I could see he was getting away with what was impossible for me to follow (repeated rolling and switching left to right).
My thoughts, it's a 10 year old sim with amazing detail but also hindered by the degree to which things can be simulated. I hope that in the new sim it will be equally hard to fly either aircraft due to their unique designs and that there will be no uberness to either for people in forums like this to whine about which is verging on the ridiculous. I would be willing to bet that 80% of people whining in here about FM's have never actually flown a real airplane and don't really know what they are arguing about except what they think it should be
I like WWII aircraft, I have built and flown models of them, for me there is no difference to my feeling of awe when I see one - no matter what air forces used them.
Some people on these Forums seem to think because they like a 109 that makes anything else a crap plane compared to it, some folks like to think that Mustangs are the greatest plane ever created. I happen to like Mustangs and won't argue the finer points but we all know that 109's and 190's were their greatest nemesis and they were flown with great skill by the pilots who flew them. The Spitfire is undoubtedly the most beautifully designed weapon of war ever created, an entire nation was saved from extinction by them and by the Hurricane, to me trying to insult people by using derrogatory names shows immaturity and insensitivity to those who fought and died for their country and really is beneath the level of respect most would give if talking face to face. After all when it's all said and done we're talking about a video game, not real life. As much as we want to simulate it, it's still just sitting in front of a computer. Can we all try to act like Adults in our discussions and not act like children trying to instigate a playground brawl?
a quick edit here, I did try this same test in 4.09 and it seems like the roles are slightly reversed, the 109 stalls at about the same point that the 4.10 Spit does

[Oktoberfest]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

I've always had more luck continuing to fight after being shot when in a 109 or 190. I've found the Spit a lot more fragile the the German fighters.

ROFLMAO LOL MDR

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

So how are you in a good position to compare the modelling of different fighters?

At least my plane taught me some skills to defeat better planes. I doubt it happens with the spit.