Trying to identify this 110 shot down in Africa or the MTO. Pictures included.

[Ltbear]

maby a combination between battle damedge and straifing by the allieds. Planes written of as 100% losses was normaly stripped down where you took all the parts that was salvageble.


LTbear

[John Vasco]

To correct and clarify a few things in this thread.

I./ZG 1 was not transferred to the Med. Front. When II./ZG 1 moved to the Med area, I./ZG 1 remained in Russia.

When II./ZG 1 was withdrawn from Montecorvino, it was not redesignated 1./ZG 26. Ltbear, you need to differentiate betwen first Staffel (1.) and first Gruppe (I.). The re-designation of II./ZG 1 did not occur until mid-1944.

S9+MP shown at Montecorvino is a Bf 110 G-2, as evidenced by the later style Bordfunker's canopy. There is no evidence whatsoever to show that II./ZG 1 in the Med flew any 'E' variants. The 'E' was being phased out with the Gruppe once they started receiving the 'F' variant on the Russian front. By the time they reached the Med area, they were equipped with the 'G-2' variant. It is known they had on charge one old 'C' variant in the Med, probably passed on to them by III./ZG 26.

[John Vasco]

Ltbear,

No question.

Go check the loss tables in my book, 'Sting of the Luftwaffe'. There, you will see all the RECORDED losses of aircraft forwarded to Luftwaffe HQ via two sources:
1. The Namentliche Verlustemeldungen, which reported the loss/wounding of crews, which also contained quite detailed aircraft information most of the time; and
2. The aircraft returns forwarded to the Lw Quartermaster for the purpose of acquiring replacement aircraft.

As I put in my first post, apart from a Bf 110 C, which I believe was a C-1 acquired from III./ZG 26 on the Med front, all the loss/damage information for aircraft was for Bf 110 G-2 aircraft. The sideways folding Bordfunker's canopy in the photos confirm it as a G-2, not an 'E'.

Unit codes on the fuselage of Bf 110s were re-used again and again in Luftwaffe Staffeln, so more than one Bf 110 would have carried the code S9+MP, not just one. Let me give you an example: Bf 110 D-0/B, S9+CK, shot down and belly-landed at Hawkhurst, Kent on 15th August 1940; Bf 110 E-1/N, S9+CK, shot down into the North Sea on 12th May 1941; Bf 110 E-1, S9+CK, damaged on combat mission, Propajak, Russian front, 12th August 1941; Me 210 A-1, S9+CK, crashed on training flight, Hörsching, near Linz, 12th December 1941; Bf 110 F-2, S9+CK, hit by Flak, 31st December 1942; Bf 110 G-2, S9+CK, hit by Flak and Russian fighter, east of Russkt-Brod, 10th May 1943.

So simpy because the Bf 110 carries the code S9+MP, you cannot ascribe its variant/sub-variant to the only known recorded code in Luftwaffe returns. Remember, if II./ZG 1 was suddenly forced to retreat and leave behind many aircraft that were u/s on Montecorvino, the last thing on their minds was probably hanging around to fill in some paperwork about the minute details of those damaged aircraft. They would simply have requisitioned replacements once they had reached their new base.

I hope this clarifies things to your satisfaction.

[Ltbear]

Originally Posted by John Vasco

Ltbear,

No question.

Go check the loss tables in my book, 'Sting of the Luftwaffe'. There, you will see all the RECORDED losses of aircraft forwarded to Luftwaffe HQ via two sources:
1. The Namentliche Verlustemeldungen, which reported the loss/wounding of crews, which also contained quite detailed aircraft information most of the time; and
2. The aircraft returns forwarded to the Lw Quartermaster for the purpose of acquiring replacement aircraft.

As I put in my first post, apart from a Bf 110 C, which I believe was a C-1 acquired from III./ZG 26 on the Med front, all the loss/damage information for aircraft was for Bf 110 G-2 aircraft. The sideways folding Bordfunker's canopy in the photos confirm it as a G-2, not an 'E'.

Unit codes on the fuselage of Bf 110s were re-used again and again in Luftwaffe Staffeln, so more than one Bf 110 would have carried the code S9+MP, not just one. Let me give you an example: Bf 110 D-0/B, S9+CK, shot down and belly-landed at Hawkhurst, Kent on 15th August 1940; Bf 110 E-1/N, S9+CK, shot down into the North Sea on 12th May 1941; Bf 110 E-1, S9+CK, damaged on combat mission, Propajak, Russian front, 12th August 1941; Me 210 A-1, S9+CK, crashed on training flight, Hörsching, near Linz, 12th December 1941; Bf 110 F-2, S9+CK, hit by Flak, 31st December 1942; Bf 110 G-2, S9+CK, hit by Flak and Russian fighter, east of Russkt-Brod, 10th May 1943.

So simpy because the Bf 110 carries the code S9+MP, you cannot ascribe its variant/sub-variant to the only known recorded code in Luftwaffe returns. Remember, if II./ZG 1 was suddenly forced to retreat and leave behind many aircraft that were u/s on Montecorvino, the last thing on their minds was probably hanging around to fill in some paperwork about the minute details of those damaged aircraft. They would simply have requisitioned replacements once they had reached their new base.

I hope this clarifies things to your satisfaction.

Sir.

I read and learn, and have no problem understanding what you are saying. Sometimes i need to read things with a bat bashing my head so i can understand lol....(not native english speaking)

My problem with any plane who use that code is that i cant find information on any plane with the code S9+MP

I have been reading the last 3 hours, in books on the net even used a great ammount of time on luftwaffe ahchives. You can find alot of information on a great deal of the planes used by ZG1, but the one or ones using the S9+MP code i simply cant find anything on

For me it have moved from the specific aircraft over to a more broad seach on the code it self, instead of any specific plane. ( the hunt of the story of S9+MP lmao)

If you have information on any plane using that number i would love to have it (sometimes you just need to know, even if its nothing you can realy use lol)


LTbear

[John Vasco]

Ltbear,

Forget the code, look at the Bordfunker's rear canopy. It is the later, revised, sideways folding canopy. It was NOT used on Bf 110 Es.

[John Vasco]

Ltbear,

Here are all the loss/damage details form II./ZG 1's time in the Med. I've included details of the losses before and after they went to the Med.

What you will see is that there are many Bf 110s of the unit destroyed/damaged on Montecorvino, but the unit did reoprt up the line their fuselage codes. This list is compiled from, as stated previously, the Namentliche Verlustmeldungen of II./ZG 1, and the entries in the Luftwaffe Quartermaster's 6th Abteilung returns, now held on microfilm in the Imperial War Museum, London.

Copy and paste the complete table into Microsoft Word, and then increase the font size to '7' and change the font to 'Univers' and you should get the table to flow correctly.

Hope this helps.

Date Name of crew and rank Staffel Status Fate Aircraft Damage Reason for Place
Code & W. Nr. state Casualty09-03-43 4 Bf 110 G-2 50% Engine trouble. Dnjepropet-
rowsk-south
5009 airfield.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10-03-43 6 Bf 110 C-7 50% Damaged by enemy fire.

2891
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10-03-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 75% Damaged by Flak. Charkow.
Gruppe
6114
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
05-04-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 70% Damaged in bombing
Gruppe attack.
7131
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
05-04-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 70% Damaged in bombing
Gruppe attack.
4182
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
05-04-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 70% Damaged in bombing
Gruppe attack
6173
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17-04-43 Uffz. Franz Böck 6 P W Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Shot down into the Between Tunis
Uffz. Henry Ahrens 6 Bf K Trop Mediterranean Sea. and Sicily.
3U+SR*
5122
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25-04-43 Oblt. Alexander Gibsone 6 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Did not return from Straits of
Uffz. Otto Weissflog 6 Bf M Trop combat mission. Sicily.
S9+TP
6189
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
28-04-43 II. Fi 156 C-3/Trop 30% Overturned on landing Taormina.
Gruppe
8133
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01-05-43 Oblt. Kurt Eiffländer 4 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Did not return from Cap Bon.
Fw. Heinz Rumke 4 Bf M Trop combat with British
S9+AC fighters. 6163
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01-05-43 Ogefr. Werner Hess 4 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Did not return from Cap Bon.
Uffz. Hubert Assmann 4 Bf M Trop combat with British
S9+BC fighters.
6238
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01-05-43 Ofw. Georg Stengel 4 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Did not return from Cap Bon.
Uffz. Werner Hellwig 4 Bf M Trop combat with British
S9+CM fighters.
6190
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01-05-43 Lt. Georg Meyer 6 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Seen to crash into the sea Straits of
Uffz. Erich Finze 6 Bf M Trop on combat mission. Sicily.
S9+IP
6178
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
03-05-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Ju 52 crashed into aircraft. Trapani Gruppe airfield.

6151
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
05-05-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 80% Tyre damage resulted in Trapani Gruppe damage to aircraft. airfield.
6183
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
09-05-43 Lt. Wolfgang Priebe 4 P W Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Crashed following combat 20 Kms.
Fw. Friedrich Kleine- 4 Bf K Trop mission. south-south-
Kleffmann S9+MM east of Reggio.
6237
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23-05-43 Lt. Erich Holthuis 5 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Crashed into the sea on 24 Kms. east
Trop combat mission. of Soverato.
S9+KN 6155
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01-06-43 II. Me 210 70% Tyre failure. Praitca di
Gruppe Mare.
6188
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 25% Airframe damage. Ciampino-North
Gruppe Trop airfield.
6212
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------06-07-42 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 45% Crash-landing. Montecorvino.
Gruppe Trop
6232
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 80% Damaged by Flak. Montecorvino.
Gruppe Trop
6234
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11-07-43 Stfw. Paul Rapp 4 P K Bf 110 G-2 Hit by Flak and attacked 15 Kms.
Fw. Gerhard Freyer 4 Bf S9+DM by 3 British fighters. South-east of
6191 Crash-landed. Mazzarino.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11-07-43 Uffz. Franz Hillmann 4 P W Bf 110 G-2/Trop Gela.
Uffz. Josef Jauernick 4 Bf W S9+EM
6153
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11-07-43 Fw. Hermann Gerdes 5 P K Bf 110 G-2 Pilot killed on combat 10 Kms. east
S9+BN mission. of Gela.
6172
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11-07-43 Uffz. Richard Blind 5 Bf K Bf 110 G-2 Bordfunker killed on 15 Kms. east
S9+KN combat mission. of Gela.
6301
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11-07-43 Oblt. Wilhelm Dreher II. P Bf 110 G-2 100% Reason for loss not Gela.
Uffz. Oskar Stellmacher Gruppe Bf known.
6181
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12-07-43 Fw. Reinhold Miehlke 5 P K Bf 110 G-2/Trop Pilot killed following 10 Kms.
Uffz. Horst Wiese 5 Bf W S9+GN direct hit from Flak south-west of
6152 on combat mission. Licodia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12-07-43 II. Bf 110 C-1 40% Damaged in bombing Montecorvino.
Gruppe attack.
0945
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino. Gruppe Trop attack.
6299
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 50% Belly-landing following
Gruppe Trop combat mission.
6217
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Fi 156 C-3/ 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe Trop attack.
8134
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 108 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 1104
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 6328
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe Trop attack. 6194
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe Trop attack. 6184
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 6218
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 6231
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 6149
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 6329
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 25% Damaged in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack. 6250
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17-07-43 Uffz. Karl Sünderhauff 4 Bf K Bf 110 G-2/ Bordfunker killed on Near Capri.
Trop combat mission.
S9+GM
6148
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
17-07-43 Uffz. Erich Essig 5 P K Bf 110 G-2 Both crewmen killed 5 Kms. West of
Uffz. Rudolf Beilner 5 Bf K S9+EN on combat mission. Montecorvino
6143 airfield.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
19-07-43 Fw. Bernhardt Grundt 5 P Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Collided with S9+EM 20 Kms. north
Uffz. Kurt Geyer 5 Bf M Trop during combat with of Taormina.
S9+CN Spitfires.
6229
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
19-07-43 Uffz. Franz Hillmann 4 P M Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Collided with S9+CN 20 Kms. north
Uffz. Josef Jauernick 4 Bf M Trop during combat with of Taormina.
S9+EM Spitfires.
6153
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 75% Damaged in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe Trop attack.
6161
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 60% Damaged in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe Trop attack. 6187
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 90% Damaged in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe attack.
6185
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20-07-43 II. Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Destroyed in bombing Montecorvino
Gruppe Trop
S9+GM 6148
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
28-07-43 Fw. Karl Hirschmann 4 P K Bf 110 G-2/ 100% Shot down in combat with North-east of
Uffz. Günther-Harald 4 Bf K Trop fighters during attack Catania.
S9+AM on shipping.
5632
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-08-43 Major Heinz Nacke Stab P W Bf 110 G-2 Crashed on non-combat flight.
(Gruppenkommandeur) S9+KM
Ofw. Hans-Joachim Kobel II W 6303
Uffz. Anton Maigler Gruppe W
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
02-08-43 II Bf 110 G-2 20% Damaged by obstruction on Memmingen
Gruppe airfield.
6403
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------21-08-43 Uffz. Georg Planer 5 P K Bf 110 G-2 100% Crashed into the sea West of Brest.
Uffz. Horst Hoffmann 5 Bf K S9+GN during combat with
6406 Liberator.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23-08-43 II. Bf 110 G-2 10% Hit by own Flak. Atlantic coast.
Gruppe
6366
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23-08-43 II Bf 110 G-2 Belly-landed due to Brest-Süd
Gruppe engine problem. airfield.
6332