Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[Triggaaar]

Western governments don't get the oil, but the huge oil contracts go to western companies, and corrupt officials (*cough* bush) get massive payouts. The $millions make it easier for people like Blair and Bush to sleep and forget about the soldiers they've sacrificed for their greed.

[Theshark888]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

Western governments don't get the oil, but the huge oil contracts go to western companies, and corrupt officials (*cough* bush) get massive payouts. The $millions make it easier for people like Blair and Bush to sleep and forget about the soldiers they've sacrificed for their greed.

What's the difference between a "corrupt" western corporations or a state run dictatorship "corrupt" corporation?

The USA is not large/rich enough so our president (Bush) attacked Iraq in order to make billions of dollars and settle down on his ranch and write a book? And Blair joined along to gain wealth also? Do you realize how foolish your conspiracy theories actually sound? Don't you think there are easier ways for a corporation or president for that matter, to make billions of dollars instead of going to war?

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Theshark888

Don't you think there are easier ways for a corporation or president for that matter, to make billions of dollars instead of going to war?

Not for defense companies.

It also serves all kind of government programs.

If you have ever served, maybe you had the chance to check an inventory list.
All of the sudden, a standard toilet seat worth $20, is worth $150.
Where does this money go?

Oh, btw, you did get the oil, or at least some of it:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...nt/import.html

Apparently Bush was really bad at the whole making money in war thing because his net worth is about $25 million.

talk about fringe benefits, lol

[Splitter]

lol, he was "rich" before he entered office. As was Clinton and as is Obama.

BTW, the whole "war for money" thing must also apply to Obama because we are still there and even doing a troop surge in Afghanistan. Now, I guess since Obama is only worth about $10 million, he needs the money too .

Splitter

[Theshark888]

Originally Posted by swiss

Not for defense companies.


If you have ever served, maybe you had the chance to check an inventory list.
All of the sudden, a standard toilet seat worth $20, is worth $150.
Where does this money go?

Oh, btw, you did get the oil, or at least some of it:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...nt/import.html







talk about fringe benefits, lol

Defense industries make much more by selling there goods to other countries. They can tack on training costs, etc. I have worked for the evil military complex and the reason why so much of the military goods cost so much is simply a supply and demand issue. Because the military is a government run organization, the powers that be cannot just take a toilet seat off the shelf. They must design a complete new one, with special military options and then they order 500. That toilet seat at the store was made in quantities of 10,000 or more and it's a simple cost per unit issue. Happens all the time...no conspiracy here.

We still "buy" Iraqi oil, we should have taken over their oil industry and sent the oil home for free to pay for ther war. We could even give the Europeans a discount

Bush was more in line with domestic matters and was probably over his head when 9/11 happened. He did what he thought best and the country was with him up to a point. Obama is the same, he probably has more book smart than Bush (don't really know as Obama is hiding his records) but has no foreign affairs or real leadership credentials....he is the one to be afraid of.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Theshark888

Because the military is a government run organization, the powers that be cannot just take a toilet seat off the shelf. They must design a complete new one, with special military options and then they order 500.

That would be correct if it was so.
The products I'm talking about are standard ones you could buy everywhere.
standard(!) toilet seat, or even a normal ($40!) 500gr hammer.

And yes, I know of those special gov. needs: The Swiss felt need for their F18 to have a Titanium frame for prolonged service use.

I mean, just a thought, the F18 is made for carrier use - but the Swiss still think the cell is too weak?
wtf.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by swiss

And yes, I know of those special gov. needs: The Swiss felt need for their F18 to have a Titanium frame for prolonged service use.

I mean, just a thought, the F18 is made for carrier use - but the Swiss still think the cell is too weak?

I am pobably wrong, but don't they earmark sections of autobarns/major roads for use as airfields as part of their contingency plans? This would require a fairly robust airframe. I wonder if they use arrestor wires for 'short' strips ?

Also when operating in very mountainous area having dual engines would be an advantage.


One of my friend was working as a fireman foir the RAAF many years ago. One of our F/A-18's wen down in the outback and he was one of the men sent to recover the plane. They needed to separate one of the rudders from the plane which are held by titanium hinges so they got the 'Jaws of life' fromthe back of the firetruck and tried to cut the hinge. Unfortunately the hinge remained intact but the sheers of the jaws of life splayed open, destroying the tool. Titanium is tough stuff!
Cheers

[Theshark888]

Originally Posted by swiss

That would be correct if it was so.
The products I'm talking about are standard ones you could buy everywhere.
standard(!) toilet seat, or even a normal ($40!) 500gr hammer.

Governments overpay for normal items all the time. This is not a military supplier only issue. Add in union contracts and the prices of items sold and installed by the government run 5 to 10 times the going rate...I know , I deal with this all the time. I don't know how you Euros can get anything done at a fair price

My whole point is that a President of the USA and his "military establishment buddies" have a whole range of ways to make money without creating a fake war in Iraq and then not keeping the oil for ourselves. If they were smart enough to carry this out and made up the WMD issue don't you think they would realize after we took over the country no weapons would be found. If they were that evil wouldn't they have created some fake storage facility with Iraqi WMD's?

Let me get this straight>>>>>>>The USA goes through this whole conspiracy to take over oil because of a fake WMD issue and then "forgets" to plant fake WMD's in the country and then "forgets" to get the free oil. All this to give some oil/military suppliers some government contracts????? See how silly this sounds

Didn't know that about the titanium F-18's...good info.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by swiss

That would be correct if it was so.
The products I'm talking about are standard ones you could buy everywhere.
standard(!) toilet seat, or even a normal ($40!) 500gr hammer.

I don't know how the Swiss do it, but a government spec on something as simple as a switch or a desk can take up several pages. And in most instances, a contractor must charge the government less than its' largest commercial clients. When I sell to the government, I am usually making 10% gross profit, about half what I make off of any commercial entity.

Many times when you see these inflated prices the government pays, they were part of a package deal. Example: a contractor is tasked with keeping a machine running. The machine has 1,000 parts. The contractor bids $100,000 for the job. So each part costs $100 on average and that's what the government pays per part. Now, the part may actually cost $3,000 or it might cost $5 individually to the contractor, but the government is billed at the average cost of $100 per item.

The waste in government really comes from the 12 agencies that wrote the spec for each part. In each agency the spec was reviewed by dozens of people. They all have their opinions and they all write in their own little part of the spec. In the end, that little switch that cost the manufacturer $3 to make costs the government $20 to procure in quantity, more if they buy one or two.

I swear that government employees must get paid by the pound of paperwork they generate.

Oh....and once the spec is all but written, then the government does an environmental impact study on the switch lol.

No business could operate the way the government does.

Splitter

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Splitter

I don't know how the Swiss do it, but a government spec on something as simple as a switch or a desk can take up several pages. And in most instances, a contractor must charge the government less than its' largest commercial clients. When I sell to the government, I am usually making 10% gross profit, about half what I make off of any commercial entity.

Tell me...
We had a gov. Contract too, we made about 15% instead of >33%.
But we wanted the contract come hell or high water. Of course there was also a perspective for future contracts(which would more than make up for the discount) from other agencies and some media coverage.
It worked.

The waste in government really comes from the 12 agencies that wrote the spec for each part. In each agency the spec was reviewed by dozens of people. They all have their opinions and they all write in their own little part of the spec. In the end, that little switch that cost the manufacturer $3 to make costs the government $20 to procure in quantity, more if they buy one or two.

It gets really funny when they change the specs although they are already field testing the product.
One of those example is was the swiss development of the P16 Fighter-Bomber.
It was doomed - the wing however saw later use in the Learjet.
http://www.leica-geosystems.com/down...seum_CS_en.pdf

No business could operate the way the government does.

Splitter

Not very long, lol.

I am pobably wrong, but don't they earmark sections of autobarns/major roads for use as airfields as part of their contingency plans?

No, you 're right
Germany has them too btw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx7Meo7w-pY

They Swiss were last time tested in 1991.
The concept was abandoned 1995.

This would require a fairly robust airframe. I wonder if they use arrestor wires for 'short' strips ?

No sir.