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Units, artifacts, spells and Pet Dragon Discussion, questions and solutions about units, artifacts, spells and Pet Dragon.

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  #1  
Old 11-20-2010, 11:16 PM
BB Shockwave BB Shockwave is offline
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Umm, you seem to be forgetting that Leadership is gained due to levelling, items (mostly Regalia), banners and 1 skill... while Intellect can be gained with many skills, items, etc. So it's not like I can "go for leadership". It's much harder to increase then Intellect.

I am not playing Impossible, only Hard. It's challenging enough for a no-loss game.

Resurrection skill plus Magic Light increases the effect of the spell Resurrection, so if you are not using Paladins - I am now, because I am going with a Human army, but won't do in my next walkthrough - it is the way to go.

Btw, funny question... I have never heard/seen of anyone using the Paladin's prayer as an attack skill. It is supposed to damage Demons and Undead. I suppose, since the Paladin's Resurrection boosts Prayer, this could be an usefull weapon, just teleport your Paladin into the fray and "pray"...
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  #2  
Old 11-21-2010, 12:04 PM
ckdamascus ckdamascus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB Shockwave View Post
Umm, you seem to be forgetting that Leadership is gained due to levelling, items (mostly Regalia), banners and 1 skill... while Intellect can be gained with many skills, items, etc. So it's not like I can "go for leadership". It's much harder to increase then Intellect.

I am not playing Impossible, only Hard. It's challenging enough for a no-loss game.

Resurrection skill plus Magic Light increases the effect of the spell Resurrection, so if you are not using Paladins - I am now, because I am going with a Human army, but won't do in my next walkthrough - it is the way to go.

Btw, funny question... I have never heard/seen of anyone using the Paladin's prayer as an attack skill. It is supposed to damage Demons and Undead. I suppose, since the Paladin's Resurrection boosts Prayer, this could be an usefull weapon, just teleport your Paladin into the fray and "pray"...
Well, you appear to have different, albeit extremely inefficient requirements. So I suppose the Paladin idea is moot. However, just to point out a few things.

You can always INCREASE effective leadership with Paladin units because the Inquisitor's sword ALWAYS spawns.

You can also increase effective leadership via Phantom by increasing the Summoner Skill, which again, does NOT really benefit from Int proportionally. Phantom raises up the % by Int/3. That's horribly inefficient. Better off raising Summoning to level 3 than waste ANY points on raising/buffing Intellect for the sake of Phantom.

Intellect is one of the worst stats in the entire game because it takes so much of it to be useful in IMPOSSIBLE games. Not to mention, damaging spells tend to be not nearly so good in Impossible games since the enemy is overwhelmingly strong compared to you.

That said, I usually ended up going support mode even with a Mage because there simply wasn't any point. An extra 500-1000 damage is worthless.

Clearly if atlatea and I play and beat Impossible games EASILY without any losses, don't you think our advice is easily applicable to lower difficulty levels?

However, you don't plan to use Paladins... and probably dont' plan to use inquisitors or rune mages either. I highly advise rune mages if you plan to do the demon build. Funny how the archdemons ranked nearly one of the best tank units on loreangelicus' spreadsheet.

The problem with Intellect, especially for Resurrection, is that it does not gain a bonus for every 7 intellect like most of the damage spells.

So, Resurrecting based on Intellect is purely linear, and at a pathetically slow rate too. Incidentally leadership can turn the tables big time depending on which part of the game you are, and they are key against all bosses.

Magic Light the Magic Tree Skill is only "really" good at level 1, since each consecutive increase only provides an additional 5% for 4 mind and 5 magic runes as opposed to a nice 15% boost at level 1.

Resurrection Paladin Mind Tree Skill raises the ability by 10% at first, but keeps giving 10% per upgrade, but costs 12, 14, 16 mind runes per level.

I would go with Rune Mages, and don't bother with Magic Light past level 1 unless you really got spare goods.

You probably want rune mages at a minimum as they tend to have similar revival capabiliites as the Paladin but no Area of Effect. However, Rune mages lets your revive level 5s, and lets you revive from a range, as opposed to walking the units to the paladin. Of course, this is with 20 spare mind runes for the rune mage.

If you just do the math, you'd see the difference though.

Anyways, back to your leadership vs intellect.

Metamorphic Axel can do 2000 leadership or +4 intellect. Which one is better for reviving?

2000 leadership means 9 more paladins.

9 paladins means 9*24 = 218 HP healed.

Level 3 Resurrection (mind you, you already wasted magic crystals to get this spell), 600 HP base, so you need 36% boost to heal 218 HP.

36% boost is 7-8 Intellect, OR Level 3 in Mind Tree Resurrection + 2 intellect. Or Level 3 in Magic Light + 11 intellect points.

Throw in Inquistor sword and Metamorphic axel, and the gap is even bigger, requiring 45% boost in magic (9 intellect) to compare.

So, I can get one Metamorphic Axel OR I can
Waste 46 mind runes, 2 slots for +7/+8 intellect and 28 magic crystals.
Or 12 mind runes, 15 magic runes, 3 slots for +11 intellect and 28 magic crystals.

Or you can replace the loss of slots for consuming more magic runes for the Magic Tree. Considering all I had to do was get one Metamorphic Axel...

Or heck, just throw in the Elven Crown, or Marshal's Baton... the idea is that leadership is FAR FAR FAR FAR more efficient in this regard.

If you are using units to revive, leadership is usually more important. -X% to leadership items are very very very good.

Of course, if you are playing on hard as opposed to impossible, who knows. Maybe all of this is moot since it should be easy enough to use any other strategy to win. I've never played Hard mode.
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  #3  
Old 11-22-2010, 03:51 PM
atlatea atlatea is offline
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Regarding magic light skill, i agree that going beyond lv 1 is a waste of runes.

Play KB TL if you want better resurrection spell, but they have very limited use in AP and CW.
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  #4  
Old 11-22-2010, 05:04 PM
BB Shockwave BB Shockwave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckdamascus View Post
Well, you appear to have different, albeit extremely inefficient requirements. So I suppose the Paladin idea is moot. However, just to point out a few things.
Man, you really must have a lot of free time to analyze this game like you do, do you work or are still in university? Sure, I believe you it is the most efficient way, you have explained it with charts and numbers, but I'd hate to play the game again and again and always use the same unit in every game, just because of the Prayer.

Again, you play Impossible games - I only play Hard. It's enough of a challenge, and since I only get to play maybe 3-4 hours a week it'd take me a lot of time to finish an Impossible game.

I'm a bit surprised at what you say about Resurrection and how it doesn't increase every 7th Intellect point. Granted, I played on Normal with my Warrior, but even she with her not too high Intellect had enough spell power to resurrect everything I have lost even in hard battles. Baal was tough to do no-loss - killing him is not that hard, ensuring some unit is left behind to keep resurrecting your units without Gilbert killing it is harder - but in the end I killed him by going only with one stack of Gorguls and spamming Phantom and Time Back. Gorguls can attack Bhaal without fear of retaliation, often more then once per round, "through" the demons he summons.

My question regarding your message is - since my current army build does contain lots of Human units - what is this Inquisitor Sword and where can you always find it? I checked the save game in Excel and did not see it...

Last edited by BB Shockwave; 11-22-2010 at 05:11 PM.
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  #5  
Old 11-22-2010, 06:14 PM
atlatea atlatea is offline
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From thomas torve, defeat him and you get the sword. In CW, he always appears in elon, however in AP, it is random.
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  #6  
Old 12-10-2010, 10:22 PM
BB Shockwave BB Shockwave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atlatea View Post
From thomas torve, defeat him and you get the sword. In CW, he always appears in elon, however in AP, it is random.
Ah, thanks! He's the fallen paladin, right? I remember defeating him in Tekron mines in AP, but do not remember the sword... most likely sold it as I was playing dwarves back then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckdamascus View Post
Of note, the only other item that can reduce leadership further is the Knight's Set. But it seems so rare, not all the items are that great,... and the end goal seems a little mediocre.
But the Knight's Set does decrease requirements for Horsemen and Knights.
Too bad it doesn't work for Paladins. I dunno, the charm of the Paladin are his Talents - he can actually do something to affect your other units while marching (at a snail's pace) towards the enemy. The Knight... it takes a lot of time or a teleport to put him into the fray.

I'm really enjoying Horsemen, I found the Horsemen Shield, which gives +5 defense to Horsemen, and +3 Defense overall - so yeah, I checked, it gives +8 defense to Horsemen. Neat... Adrenaline can also really help out in increasing damage. Using Horsemen to inflict the most damage is somewhat complicated, at least moreso then in the older Heroes games.

Last edited by BB Shockwave; 12-10-2010 at 10:26 PM.
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  #7  
Old 12-10-2010, 11:50 PM
atlatea atlatea is offline
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Orc veteran is slightly better than horsemen in CW. They do more dmg / leadership + no counter. Perfect setup, because while paladin + target tank the whole enemies while that insane orc veteran slaughter them to oblivion.

Horsemen number will dwindle with each counter from enemies, making them somewhat useless in KB CW, though i often use this unit in KB TL.
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  #8  
Old 12-11-2010, 09:36 AM
BB Shockwave BB Shockwave is offline
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But Orcs and Humans don't really like each other sadly, and most of my current army is Humans (plus Royal Griffins and Assassins... I wish Assassins were handled like Robbers and would be counted as humans).

I know many units are better in combat then Horseman, their main advantage is their speed, however - only Cerberi come close to that. Besides, I am not trying to put together the best units in my walkthrough - I usually start a game by deciding a "theme", in the current case, an all-human army, and go with that, it's more of a challenge.
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  #9  
Old 12-11-2010, 07:57 PM
ckdamascus ckdamascus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB Shockwave View Post
Ah, thanks! He's the fallen paladin, right? I remember defeating him in Tekron mines in AP, but do not remember the sword... most likely sold it as I was playing dwarves back then.

Originally Posted by ckdamascus
Of note, the only other item that can reduce leadership further is the Knight's Set. But it seems so rare, not all the items are that great,... and the end goal seems a little mediocre.
But the Knight's Set does decrease requirements for Horsemen and Knights.

Too bad it doesn't work for Paladins. I dunno, the charm of the Paladin are his Talents - he can actually do something to affect your other units while marching (at a snail's pace) towards the enemy. The Knight... it takes a lot of time or a teleport to put him into the fray.

I'm really enjoying Horsemen, I found the Horsemen Shield, which gives +5 defense to Horsemen, and +3 Defense overall - so yeah, I checked, it gives +8 defense to Horsemen. Neat... Adrenaline can also really help out in increasing damage. Using Horsemen to inflict the most damage is somewhat complicated, at least moreso then in the older Heroes games.
The Knight's Set does decrease requirements for Paladins. As it is the only other item that can reduce the leadership requirements for Paladins as far as I know.

Did you mean the Paladin Class can't use it or can't easily wear it? I think they can do it, as the set should only take up all the "frontal" slots of any of the classes.

In my post I was implying that even with the -40% reduction in leadership (inquisitor sword is -20% AND knight's set is -20%) the end goal is too "bleh" for me.

Dealing up to 30K damage? (didn't do the math again for it, but I remember it was not that awesome), only level 4 (not super high attack stat), but slow moving wasn't impressive enough to be worth the effort.

I was just throwing in that it helps reduce the leadership of both horsemen, and knights... (it also does swordsmen, and guardsmen, but I omitted them), as a saving grace to sort of make it worth the effort of finding a random game with those items.

At least with fairies, they can do a lot more, soaring, move fast, fast initiative with the girl power set... even with the lower attack stats, the base damage was much higher (Maybe 60K?), and you can get attack raising items to help increase your damage to get closer to the maximum damage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BB Shockwave View Post
But Orcs and Humans don't really like each other sadly, and most of my current army is Humans (plus Royal Griffins and Assassins... I wish Assassins were handled like Robbers and would be counted as humans).

I know many units are better in combat then Horseman, their main advantage is their speed, however - only Cerberi come close to that. Besides, I am not trying to put together the best units in my walkthrough - I usually start a game by deciding a "theme", in the current case, an all-human army, and go with that, it's more of a challenge.
So? That's one major advantage of the Paladin Class. The morale skill is designed to make it easier for the Paladin Class to mix and match so they can take the best of each other's races.

I wish Assassins could get buffed. I've rarely seen that "Servant of Death" ability as a mixed blessing.... only as a curse.

Ooooh the irony. Orc Veterans, with Moldok the Orc, and some basic skills so they can use Potion of Rage / Speed (the first Adrenaline skill) in the first round... are faster than Horsemen. Once you hit Adrenaline Level 3, always fun to hit horsemen, and NOT get retaliated on.

In fact, combined with Tactics Level 2, Orc Veterans could reach the other end of the field in round 1 nearly every time. Although, to preserve my precious pig warriors, I would just stop short of maxing out the distance, and use a Phantom to hit. So evil.

Last edited by ckdamascus; 12-11-2010 at 08:07 PM.
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  #10  
Old 12-11-2010, 11:31 PM
BB Shockwave BB Shockwave is offline
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Oh, thanks. So it decreases leadership for pretty much all Human troops then.

I just got the Dress of the Magess btw, and the +30% critical chance for Archmages is really neat. (Oddly, it seems to be more then 30% for me - without the dress, they have 14%, with the dress, they have 53%...) Too bad it doesn't work for Rune Mages as well.

The lighting -fast orc strategy must be neat... Getting to the enemy early is pretty important. I remember, in my Warrior walkthrough of AP, I used Tactics II with my Gorguls to similar effect, calculating the distances so that I could attack and kill an enemy, and then move on to the next. Sometimes, I killed a whole enemy army during 1 round with just my stack of Gorguls, the Bloodlust worked so often!
That must
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