Friday 2010-11-12 Dev. update and Discussion

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by Necrobaron

However if SoW, or whatever it's called now, is going to ship with missing aircraft markings, I'd at least like to keep the avenue open for 3rd parties to add the correct markings for those that can legally view historical correctness.

+1 on that part. I respect the decision of countries not to show a symbol, but it is a pity if their decision impacts on others. Particularly given that the subject is those countries committing atrocities against the countries their decisions are now affecting.

Originally Posted by Splitter

The ability for a third party to add them should not be curtailed.

But maybe even having that ability is a violation of the law in some countries. I suspect that is the case and why the developer will not allow such third party skins.

A simple switch (markings on/off) may be banned, but they obviously can't ban the ability for a third party to paint skins (they could ban those third parties from making certain skins available in their country, though that can be hard to police). To ban the ability to make skins would be like banning pen and paper. There’s no reason why the publishers can’t produce the game with historical markings, but only sell censored copies in countries with a ban on Nazi symbols.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Jaguar

The choice is not really ours. It belongs to Mr Maddox himself. If he choses not to then there is nothing that anyone would be able to do about it. Voice your opinion and move on to the next topic. I would not want Oleg to interfere with my potentiall earnings or make me lose my income.

It's not really a choice is it though, Oleg is in the business to sell his sim, being unable to sell it at all in those countries that have laws against it will only result in a far bigger loss than the few who'll decide to not buy it because they aren't included. The only real choice he has is whether he leaves a way of the end user adding them post purchase or not and that will depend on how liable he is for the addition even if he is not responsible for it.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by Necrobaron

This isn't directed at you specifically Foo'bar and I'll probably regret even making this point since it'll probably make me a "bad guy" but...

That'd be too bad if markings are not editable. In the case of WWII-era German planes specifically, it bugs me when history takes a backseat to censorship and political correctness. As much as I disagree with it, I accept that some countries like to whitewash history by making some symbols illegal. That's their perogative and I understand that Maddox Games doesn't want to open themselves up for litigation (though I think it's ludicrous to think a flight sim would be a lightning rod for Neo-Nazis). However if SoW, or whatever it's called now, is going to ship with missing aircraft markings, I'd at least like to keep the avenue open for 3rd parties to add the correct markings for those that can legally view historical correctness.

I'm certainly no Nazi sympathizer but for all the nitpicking about inconsequential details, it's surprising to me that more people aren't bugged by the lack of historically correct markings on German planes. Like it or not, the swastika was there. To me, leaving it off is tantamount to leaving the fin flashes or roundels off RAF planes, tantamount of course not in idealogy but in historical correctness.

Ok, rant over. Sorry for veering off on a controversial tangent so...flame away!

I understand what you’re saying and agree with you, BUT I don't think these laws are not designed to "white wash" history but to remove the symbol from use by hate groups most of whom have no direct link to the Nazi movement.

I live in a sleepy little back water of a city on the opposite side of the world to where most of the suffering and destruction occurred. I have NEVER seen a Christian church with graffiti or desecrated with anti-Christian symbols or slogans. But I have seen Mosques, Synagogues, and even a small corner shops owned by non-European owners, tagged with swastikas, messages of hate and neo-Nazi diatribe. It is something defective in the minds of these people.

The laws are created to be able to punish these people.

As a good, honest, law abiding citizens of my country (where these laws are not in place by the way) and of our world community, I have accepted that the loss of historical accuracy in a computer game is one of the prices that I have to pay because of these idiot’s. Just as I accept it doesn’t matter what your race, creed, religion or cultural background there’s still going to be a percentage of any group of people that are complete a***holes, unfortunately, at the moment, a good percentage of them seem to think that being filled with hate is cool.

Sorry for going off-topic.

[Necrobaron]

Originally Posted by brando

I don't think that the Germans banned the swastika emblem for reasons of "...... censorship and political correctness." I believe they did it as a reaction to one of the worst things that can happen to a nation state; namely allowing itself to be taken over by a totalitarian dictatorship and ending up being humiliated by the atrocities that were carried out in its name.
I also don't believe it's a whitewash of history. It comes across as a total rejection of the Nazi dogma and a solid declaration of German unwillingness to allow the same mistakes to be made again. It was the right decision and I for one applaud it.

I have a great respect for Germany's people and history and hate the ruin that Hitler led them to and the evil that he committed. However, if they banned the swastika to prevent the same mistakes from being made again, they have bigger problems to worry about. I just can't fathom the stigma and hold the Nazi swastika has on some people, good or bad. I just want people to use a little reason and common sense. Banning the Nazi swastika is not a panacea.

To reiterate, I understand that Oleg's hands are effectively tied in making the swastika a default marking. While I would argue any swastikas depicted in SoW would be done so in a historical context, he doesn't want to test the legal waters and I understand this. I just don't want 3rd party to be limited by the censorship of the few.
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Starbucks Gift Card

[Jaguar]

Originally Posted by Dano

It's not really a choice is it though, Oleg is in the business to sell his sim, being unable to sell it at all in those countries that have laws against it will only result in a far bigger loss than the few who'll decide to not buy it because they aren't included. The only real choice he has is whether he leaves a way of the end user adding them post purchase or not and that will depend on how liable he is for the addition even if he is not responsible for it.

Its Olegs business yes.
Did he have a huge loss in sales due to non swastica markings in Germany? Did my money get sent to a business that said they were based in Germany but they were not? Ie. Wings over Waves, Wings over Jungles, The Fires above. Luftkrieg the air war in Europe Operation Overlord .......... They lost money in European sales?
What is more real than I will not allow it to happen due to my leadership[ of my own company? I as the head of my company am liable for my actions . Look at the Nurenburg trials as an example.

[Necrobaron]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

I understand what you???re saying and agree with you, BUT I don't think these laws are not designed to "white wash" history but to remove the symbol from use by hate groups most of whom have no direct link to the Nazi movement.

I live in a sleepy little back water of a city on the opposite side of the world to where most of the suffering and destruction occurred. I have NEVER seen a Christian church with graffiti or desecrated with anti-Christian symbols or slogans. But I have seen Mosques, Synagogues, and even a small corner shops owned by non-European owners, tagged with swastikas, messages of hate and neo-Nazi diatribe. It is something defective in the minds of these people.

The laws are created to be able to punish these people.

As a good, honest, law abiding citizens of my country (where these laws are not in place by the way) and of our world community, I have accepted that the loss of historical accuracy in a computer game is one of the prices that I have to pay because of these idiot???s. Just as I accept it doesn???t matter what your race, creed, religion or cultural background there???s still going to be a percentage of any group of people that are complete a***holes, unfortunately, at the moment, a good percentage of them seem to think that being filled with hate is cool.

Sorry for going off-topic.

I just don't think extremists should be allowed ruin things for the rest of us. I may not agree with what they do or say, but I feel they have the right to say it. Punishment should not come at the cost of free speech, but now I'm getting even more off-topic than I was before!
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New Mexico Dispensaries

[The Kraken]

Originally Posted by Necrobaron

However, if they banned the swastika to prevent the same mistakes from being made again, they have bigger problems to worry about.

Actually it was the allies, in late 1945. Blame them

I just want people to use a little reason and common sense.

This is primarily a legal and also a political issue. It has nothing to do with reason and common sense. That's why all these discussions here are completely pointless. Each and every argument has already been exchanged 10 years ago with Il2 and before that, with other sims.

And if user-made emblems are possible then it's a non-issue anyway.

[Freycinet]

Dear me, the swastika debate.... yawn.

[major_setback]

Real-time reflections?

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

... There’s no reason why the publishers can’t produce the game with historical markings, but only sell censored copies in countries with a ban on Nazi symbols....

Yes, but I think Oleg stated some time ago that he did not want to produce different versions of the game. It may also be that "producing" a historically accurate sim may be illegal in Russia. In other words, Russian law may prohibit even producing accurate software for export.

Yeah, a lot of people think the swastika should be banned. Ok, I get that (I don't agree but I get it). Of course, the "Red Star" and "Hammer and Sickle" are banned in some countries too (many people were oppressed and died under those symbols too).

So if we follow that line of thinking, how should Russian planes be marked? Should "you" have to play the sim without those symbols on Russian planes because another country banned them?

Nothing I have said should be construed as negative to 1C's decisions regarding the legalities. My comments are about the laws themselves and the effects they have on others.

Splitter