Real World BoB Hurricane Pilot's views on SOW

[PeterPanPan]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Do not discount these men’s memories. The events that occurred were very intense and indelibly etched themselves into these veterans minds ... Many of the veteran’s memories of events are still quite lucid!
Cheers!

Totally agree. Listen to anything Geoff Wellum has to say. He remembers things as clearly as if they were yesterday. He said "People ask me, how do you remember those things from all that time ago? I say, how can I ever forget?"

PPanPan

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by PeterPanPan

Flight Lieutenant John Greenwood flew Hurricanes in the Battle of Britain with RAF 253 Squadron. He shot down a Heinkel over Farnborough in August 1940. He is now 91.

Through a mutual friend, I managed to show him this ...

... and here's what he had to say.

"As for the simulator I cannot pass comment for it was short and looked like a computer game which I used to play some years ago. I guess it is more like a game than a simulator. A hurricane would have been shot down long before it reached the Heinkels."

....

PPanPan

Hey do you think he was suggesting that the Tail Gunners should have been more accurate??????

Cheers and thanks for sharing your encounter with us.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by PeterPanPan

Totally agree. Listen to anything Geoff Wellum has to say. He remembers things as clearly as if they were yesterday. He said "People ask me, how do you remember those things from all that time ago? I say, how can I ever forget?"

PPanPan

Every time I hear the stories that these men tell, my respect for them grows. Thanks to men like them I've never had to put myself in harms way.

The most unfortunate thing about that is that in the past I've taken too many things for granted and haven't even thought about the sacrifices that these men have had to endure for me to live the way I can.

Slowly as I'm getting older and now have got kids of my own, I am slowly realising the price that these men paid in their youth.

Cheers!

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Do not discount these men’s memories.
Many of the veteran’s memories of events are still quite lucid!
Cheers!

Look, the last thing I want is to degrade/belittle them.

But: If you asked me about things that happened 20years ago, most of it is blurry - and black and white.
I could'nt tell for sure.
20years.

Or eyewitnesses in a criminal case, they cannot remember all details, they may think they remember, but their mind is just playing a trick on them.

That's how our brain is built, can't change this fact.

I also had a close relative who served in the 8th army as tank driver, I sure enjoyed listening to all that stories - but from a objective point of view....you can't tell if it's all true, somethings could be made up by the brain, unintentionally.

Edit:
We have a guy here in the form who interviews Russian veteran pilots.
I you read the interviews, you find several corrections by the interviewer - some facts were just plain wrong in the memories of the vets.
Do you think they "lied" intentionally"?

[katdogfizzow]

My experience in IL2 is the same as this vets...fly up to a 111 like that and you're going down, no doubt about it

[winny]

Originally Posted by swiss

Look, the last thing I want is to degrade/belittle them.

But: If you asked me about things that happened 20years ago, most of it is blurry - and black and white.
I could'nt tell for sure.
20years.

Or eyewitnesses in a criminal case, they cannot remember all details, they may think they remember, but their mind is just playing a trick on them.

That's how our brain is built, can't change this fact.

I also had a close relative who served in the 8th army as tank driver, I sure enjoyed listening to all that stories - but from a objective point of view....you can't tell if it's all true, somethings could be made up by the brain, unintentionally.

Edit:
We have a guy here in the form who interviews Russian veteran pilots.
I you read the interviews, you find several corrections by the interviewer - some facts were just plain wrong in the memories of the vets.
Do you think they "lied" intentionally"?

This isn't a story it's a tactical fact. If anyone knows what would get you killed it's a guy who watched people getting killed doing it.

EDIT: One thing nobody's mentioned is the fact that you can't get killed in SoW, by burning to death or being shot in the head, or boiled alive by glycol this discussion is completley disregarding the fact that there has to be a person involved the way the vet did it...

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by swiss

Look, the last thing I want is to degrade/belittle them.

But: If you asked me about things that happened 20years ago, most of it is blurry - and black and white.
I could'nt tell for sure.
20years.

Or eyewitnesses in a criminal case, they cannot remember all details, they may think they remember, but their mind is just playing a trick on them.

That's how our brain is built, can't change this fact.

I also had a close relative who served in the 8th army as tank driver, I sure enjoyed listening to all that stories - but from a objective point of view....you can't tell if it's all true, somethings could be made up by the brain, unintentionally.

Edit:
We have a guy here in the form who interviews Russian veteran pilots.
I you read the interviews, you find several corrections by the interviewer - some facts were just plain wrong in the memories of the vets.
Do you think they "lied" intentionally"?

No, I’d say they answered to the best of their recollections. But also I wouldn't be labelling something as "plain wrong" when your judgement is based on documents sometimes written up months, or even years after the event by people who had not participated in the event.

Now I come from a large family and Dad has a hard time calling any of us boys name (This isn't an old age thing- it's been the same since I was a kid) , but he can still remember the name of the man who he met only once for a hour or two at most when their companies were combined and the guy was shot through the throat next to him.

I was present at a function where one of the man’s relatives asked if anyone knew the man as they to wanted find out details of the man’s service history. Dad and a few others that had been present were able to relate in detail the events leading up to the man’s death and provide a form closure to a grieving family some 65 years after the event.

The official fact’s given to the family was just a date and place of death. In just a few minutes the veterans were able to supply details about the lay of the land, the type of vegetation, the dispersal of the troops on both sides, the objectives of what they were trying to achieve and what went wrong. It actually gave a meaning to the man’s death.

I accept that there are going to be inaccuracies, confusions and errors in details. My position is that these errors are also part of the official records of the time and in many cases it’s impossible to make a judgment on the TRUTH of the events.

Cheers!

[swiss]

Originally Posted by winny

In fact it's a downright insult to disregard the stories in defence of a game, because they were risking thier lives.

You're right, only - no one did.

Other than that, I tend to trust paper over memories.

well, whatever.

[Avimimus]

Originally Posted by winny

In fact it's a downright insult to disregard the stories in defence of a game, because they were risking thier lives.

Sorry, I have to ask:
Does this actually make any sense? I mean, when we really pause and think it through?

Just because someone risked their lives, doesn't mean that they are right. Similarly, just because someone is an eyewitness it doesn't mean that they are right (it just means that they probably are). It is worth respecting people for what they did and went through. But this shouldn't translate into a completely unquestioning attitude, where any other thoughts are considered sacrilegious.

It is disturbingly like not questioning politicians on the value of a war because soldiers are fighting in it (albeit 10000 times less important).

I really, truly, liked your point about the fact that no one dies in SoW. I think it is incisive and really brings out the heart of the subject.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by swiss

You're right, only - no one did.

Other than that, I tend to trust paper over memories.

well, whatever.

Not implied by me!

I think people are entitled to be passionate about their views and in some cases both sides of a discussion can be right or wrong. (or both at the same times which is confusing! )

I tend to find the paper is good at recording the big picture of an event, but there are a lot of little details that are next to impossible to record.

It's these little details and anecdotes that I find fascinating

Cheers!