109 etc. Riat 2010

[rakinroll]

Originally Posted by JtD

Restore your own 109, feel free to put on a Swastika. If I was EADS, I wouldn't do it and therefore fully understand that they don't.

Thanks for the pics, Glider.

So you should restore any allied plane, not a historical ww2 German plane.

[remer1957]

Should have the Haakenkreuz. Looks stupid with the modern german flag.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by rakinroll

So you should restore any allied plane, not a historical ww2 German plane.

Do you mean you approve of the holocaust? I hope that's not what you mean, but that is exactly what the swastica is symbolic of in the context of nazism (I do understand that in other contexts it has had other meanings, but in WW2 it implies agreement with the nazis).

I agree that history needs to be accurate, but minor details of paint schemes are not what restoring aircraft is mainly about.

[julian265]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

Do you mean you approve of the holocaust? I hope that's not what you mean, but that is exactly what the swastica is symbolic of in the context of nazism (I do understand that in other contexts it has had other meanings, but in WW2 it implies agreement with the nazis).

I agree that history needs to be accurate, but minor details of paint schemes are not what restoring aircraft is mainly about.

"I disagree with you, so I'll bring up the holocaust". Nice.

[rakinroll]

Originally Posted by Igo kyu

Do you mean you approve of the holocaust? I hope that's not what you mean, but that is exactly what the swastica is symbolic of in the context of nazism (I do understand that in other contexts it has had other meanings, but in WW2 it implies agreement with the nazis).

I agree that history needs to be accurate, but minor details of paint schemes are not what restoring aircraft is mainly about.

I am not talkin about nazism or holocaust and ofcourse i do not approve it. How did you think like that? I am just talking about that beatiful historical warplane with his weird skin.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by julian265

"I disagree with you, so I'll bring up the holocaust". Nice.

Nope.

I disagree with the holocaust, so when it seems possibly relevant, I will mention it.

I do not generally expect people to be pro-holocaust, but some thankfully rare people are, so it's worth asking.

[JtD]

Why do you restore aircraft? As a tribute to technology.

Why do you paint swastikas? As a tribute to history.

I think that the aircraft of that time deserve the tribute. The Nazis don't.

[julian265]

I don't believe that there's one 'right' answer to this, of course.

But to me it seems that if you're wanting to avoid giving tribute to something via a painted symbol, you certainly can't avoid giving tribute to the same people via the restoration of one of their machines of war.

[WTE_Galway]

Its probably also important to point out that not all Luftwaffe aircraft had the Hakenkuz during the war.

JG53 painted theirs over after a dispute with Goering about markings for example:

[Blackdog_kt]

This swastika debate that keeps resurfacing is a bit ridiculous, because people confuse the importance of historical accuracy and they think it's paying homage to an inhuman regime. The swastika is an emblem of an inhuman, criminal regime. It's also part of history and history needs to be able to tell the whole story. Otherwise it's not history and doesn't serve it's primary purpose, to help us avoid the repetition of past mistakes.

History essentially is the effort to write down, catalogue and index in the most accurate fashion the happenings of ages before our own. In that sense, emblems of military and political organizations are part of that history.

People don't have to agree with the political/ideological platform behind the symbol, but cutting symbols out in favor of the so called political correctness is cutting parts of history itself. People are so obsessed with protecting the young from what they see on TV, in video games, in books and they still fail to realize that the reason kids falter is not what they see there...it's because they are doing it all alone without supervision or guidance from their parents.

Every single of my plastic model airplanes i used to build as a kid had accurate markings and if they were German WWII birds i was applying hackenkreuz decals. I didn't kill anybody, i still oppose the ideas of fascism, i have friends from other countries and nations and i still remember that the axis occupation cost my country 10% of its population. I'm pretty much an anti-nazi and the reason is that i could get my hands on some accurate history (at least what is widely accepted as accurate) and make up my mind about what happened.

I mean, if we want the hackenkreuz to disappear from the history books, what about the emblems of the USSR? Staling killed around the same number of people as Hitler did, should their emblems be banished from history too? Should the flags of all the modern superpowers and the guerilla factions that oppose them in various wars around the globe be cast aside too because they all do nasty things? Of course not, because then we'll have no knowledge and no recollection about the collective f-ups of the human species. We need to know and know it all, just in case that we someday learn how to avoid it.

People don't need to be "protected" from negative images and notions all the time. In fact, i think they need to be free to view more of it if they so desire, so that when the natural aversion kicks in they realize that "wow, this thing really is bad". Shielding people from every single thing leaves you with a society of desensitized drones that are oblivious, indifferent and uncarring to the nasty things that are still happening around the world today. I say show them swastikas, but also show them what it stood for, let the shock factor sink in and it won't be long before they realize and make up their minds about it. In short, show them history in the most accurate and truthful way.

On the other hand, if a German law prevents EADS from displaying the emblem i won't throw a fit over it either. I just want history preserved, i'm not going to go all ballistic over it if a modern replica or reconstruction appears

Back on topic, thanks for the very nice pictures. The 109 always looks good, i just wish i could fly it in a semi-decent way in IL2 but i totally suck with it