LIBIA italy question? or europe question?

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Heliocon

You need a reality check. Your posts are completely disconneted from reality. Radical Jihadists? Where?

You must have been out of town or something. Who destroyed the World Trade Centers 911? Who blew up the embassy in Nairobi? Who killed 13 unarmed soldiers at Fort Hood? Who just tried to set off a bomb in Times Square? This a list I could compile since the late 1970s listing all the Jihadist attacks on America alone.

What about the rail attack in Spain, the subway attacks in England, etc.

When you say radical Muslims or Muslim extremists you make Muslims mad, when you say Jihadist at least I'm trying not to identify extremists as peaceful Muslims.

Practically ever terrorist attack in the world since 1979 has been done by Muslim Extremists. They all claim to be Muslim... but are they really just using a religion to give themselves creditability when they should just be called murders and radical extremists using religion to serve up their ends.

We'll have to wait and see on this one for the people supporting and planning the revolution in Egypt to reveal themselves and their ends won't we?

You watch too much fox news, its the whole "poor america, we spread freedom and liberty and only get blame in return" bs that circulates on the right. Which Jihadists took Egypt? Your pulling bs out of thin air, the movement IS ANTI JIHADIST. Why?

You think the people behind that revolution were middle class and only want to stop the abuses of women. LOL

Because women dont want to be subjugated and repressed anymore, this unrest is driven by the educated middle class who want political reform ie a republican form of government and NOT the old repressive Muslim regimes that the west placed in the post colonial era.

I wouldn't think anyone would believe that the revolution in Egypt was for the subjugated and repressed women. A republican form of government would take away power. It wouldn't give it to any one individual or groups of individuals with their own agenda. So... IMO, a republican government it may be called. Yet, you can call a cow a chicken if you like, it won't make it so.

People dislike america because of neocons who foolishly mix ideology and faulty realism to justify their actions. America is (and its a fact) responsible for a huge amount of post WW2 turmoil including indirectly the murder of hundreds of thousands of people in south america by overthrowing democracies, let alone other regions like Iran which had a relativly secular and secure republic until we destroyed it to install the Shah.

I really don't pay much attention to radical propaganda, so all the above would really have to be better proven with factual data or references.

So when you say we are interested in supporting democracies and thats what US has done in the past - it is patently false as we directly orchestrated or provided the means for dictators to put down their people. I love you citing Yemen though considering its one of the most closely tied regimes in the middle east to the US. Same with egypt, their military uses all US equipment and their officers train and live in the US before returning to egypt. The reason for the political turmoil is because of economic growth, you need to go read up on "relative deprivation".

I said America was nation building in Iraq, which is the way it's been described for the past several years. I think you accusations about "orchestrated and provided the means for dictators to put down their people is just radical propaganda".

If anything exists along those lines it would be because everyone imposes on America to fund, provide aid for their screwed up messes, and provide worldwide policing of the world at the expense of American taxpayers.

As I mentioned earlier, the anti-American media turns democratic ideals for countries into evil American demogogary.

Why did the Western European nations turn to the United Nations to take down Gadahfi, the oil, the oil and the oil? The soviet pipes wouldn't flow as cheaply, if there was no oil from Libya to provide some competition that helps hold pricing down.

Wonder why Germany did not join in the fray? Most of their oil comes from Libya.

Why does the world think America has to fix Libya, why does America have to be the front runner? America doesn't buy zip from Libya, what is the advantage. Why does America have to do anything about Libya? Libya is a sovereign nation, where does the United Nations have cause to interfere? The United Nations is doing more to affect freedom in all nations, including the US. Have you wondered why the United Nations is involved?

Believe me, even though you don't like reading what I'm saying... there will be a biased media spin on this that will make America the bad guy. Happens every time. It won't matter that America will outspend every participating country involved in this police action... and still turn out to be the bad guys.

People dont like american policy because we are hypocrits and like to saber rattle.

Say what you will, but another despotic government will replace Gadahfi, and if it's a Jihadist motivated group of people there will be more terrorist attacks than ever. They'll have access to funding they've never had before....from the sale of Libyan crude. It will be like giving a college kid a bank for his birthday, what a bunch of trouble will be brewed when the money is available for unabated terrorist activism.

A note about hypocrits... what about all continuing genocide in Darfur and in Sudan. Where is the United Nations in all this murder and mayhem. It is still going on today. Where was the United Nations in Zimbabwe, in Congo, in Rwanda, etc.,etc. I'd say you need to think about some of those things when you defame America as hypocritical.

America's commitment to Haiti for aid around 1 billion dollars, Chavez sent one plane load of aid, the Chinese send a million dollars. Regardless, there is no country in the world that is as generous as America. Fact is, America gives more in aid to foreign countries than the REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED. How much is that worth, even if you can blame some Hypocrisy on America. Ask the starving people to curse America as they fill their bellies...with donated American food.

Helicon,

I'm going to let you have the last word on this topic. I don't think the discussion will take the posting anywhere, but to a not so pleasant ending. This is not a political forums, and the orginal topic is very off topic for this forums. I responded on it, and probably shouldn't have. Therefore, I think in all fairness after you reply I will lock thread and we can get back to business as usual.