ratings of German experts

[csThor]

I'll read the stuff you posted when my headaches are gone. Too much at the moment.

[csThor]

I finally read a part of what you posted, wannabetheace, but after a quarter of the first part I simply stopped. What you posted is biased and suggestive, obviously attempting to spread disinformation rather than trying to produce an accurate picture of aerial warfare on the Eastern Front. It's just not worth my time and not worth to be answered ...

[KG26_Alpha]

Its getting "zooubiesque" this thread.

Your replying and debating to his cutting and pasting from another persons thread on another forum, its not even his original discussion.


Lets stop it here...............

[csThor]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

Lets stop it here...............

Exactly!

[Thunderbolt56]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

Your replying and debating to his cutting and pasting from another persons thread on another forum, its not even his original discussion.

S'what I was gonna say. Plagiarism at its finest.

I didn't read beyond the first paragraph either...so there.

[wannabetheace]

Well, I see your points specially those who replied to my post.
One thing I have to make clear here that I put the information other forum because it looked fresh to me. This is not plagiarism but more like sharing information who needed.
Of course, The final decision is up to individuals but they deserve information from different viewpoints to see the truth.
But it is more clear to me that you guy are all bombarded too much with one side of the story and don't even accept that there are other side of story. Maybe you are afraid to believe that everything you have read heard of are not exactly true. I just need to undersand the true history, not lopsided one. So I like to read from diverse perspectives. I also don't believe 100% sure for Andrey's posts that I share with u guys. But this information is worth to have opinions of both sides and helps me to make my mind or at least imagine what would be the true history of air war in wwII.
There is no way that I present this information for misleading people but give them their choice to decide on their own and discover thing that they might never told. ^^

[Bewolf]

Wannebetheace, there has been much controversy over these topics from all sides and participants of all nations involved in the conflict back then. Naturally, every side is biased, the anglo saxons, the russians, the japanese and the germans all have their very own legends and exegerations. That is no secret, the hot debates over aircraft performances should be a clear indicator of these attitutes existence to this very day.

Nevertheless, in recent years, and at least from an historians point of view, the russian cause in WW2 has been thouroughly reexamined in literature, TV and as you can see here, games. A new appreciation has developed for the eastern front, not without great influence by the whole IL2 series. The planes and pilots get their share of coverage, and the T34 is widely regarded as the best tank of WW2, even in western countries. So I think a lot of the impressions by russians that the eastern front is neglected in the whole picture of events is not quite up to date anymore. Book series like "Black Cross - Red Star", co written by both western and eastern authors, have marked a timeshift quite some time ago.

But despite these changes there is a growing tendency mostly by russians to warp the picture quite remarkly, especially aiming at the german side of the conflict. What you posted is a classic example of quite a subtle dismanteling approach, truth, half truth and lies seemless flowing together, with references only taken from books when it servers to prove an agenda. It's neither objective nor scientific and that's what is bothering people.

From all the ppl in WW2, the russians suffered and contributed the most to win this war. There really is no need to denote the achievements of the german pilots and crews just for emotionals gains. They did their job like any other air force back then did, too. And yes, that includes strafing civilians and shooting chutes. Something "all" participating nations did.

[Insuber]

Originally Posted by wannabetheace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrey


in the soviet air forces the personal score never was so important, they tried to fulfil their task at first. If the task of a group of pilots was to defend an important bridge they ought to do it at first and not to shoot as more as possible enemy planes. So Soviet fighter often began to fight at any conditions but the gErmans tried to fight only in the conditions favourable to them.

Also, in many Soviet airforce squadrons, the pilots might 'give' their kill of the day, to the squadrons main tally, so that often the squadron, or the larger formation would have tens or hundreds of kills more, than were listed as the individual pilots victories combined!

This was done on occasion in the RAF too... Also the Red Airfoce and RAF had in common, was that aircraft kills were not always displayed on aircraft. This not only because they were having a different plane every time, but it wasnt considered 'proper', in many RAF circles, as they felt that the squadron had earned the kills as a group effort... This kind of mentality or something similar, was also prevalent in the Red Airforce... And the Japanese fighter squadrons, ofcourse every side had some great individualist aces, who displayed their kills, this is only natural, especially after their country's media got hold of them!

I didn't know about Russian and Japanese, but for sure Italian air-force, at least in the beginning of the war, largely didn't count individual victories, as they attributed the kills to the squadron, in an effort to avoid any individualistic approach and exalt the teamwork. So, different ideologies (fascism is by no means a collectivist ideology) but same doctrines. This fact is traditionally used to explain the relatively low scores of Italian aces, coupled with the objective weaknesses of planes and guns.

Regards,
Insuber

[Furio]

“On 5 July 1943 (aboard his cannon armed Il 2) Ivanov attacked a column of 12 of the potent German Tiger tanks. Always aiming for the tank’s lightly-protected rear which housed engine and fuel, he was able to claim destruction of all 12 tanks single-handed.”

It is quite a piece of Soviet propaganda, isn’t it? Okay, now stop laughing. I’ve cheated, changing names and sides. The real one reads as follows:

“On 5 July 1943 (aboard his cannon armed Ju 87), Rudel attacked a column of 12 of the potent Soviet T34 tanks. Always aiming for the tank’s lightly-protected rear which housed engine and fuel, he was able to claim destruction of all 12 tanks single-handed.”
(From “German Aircraft of the second World War, by Anthony L. Kay and J.R Smith, published by Putnam).

This is the kind of “facts” that we accepted as historical for years, and that often still we accept without a doubt. Nazi propaganda is not dissimilar from Soviet propaganda, but, to be honest with ourselves, we accept it much more readily.

[csThor]

Actually Rudel claimed 12 tanks on the whole of July 5 1943 in several missions. Tank claims are a lot more difficult than the already difficult aircraft claims as it's nearly impossible to discern whether or not a tank is out of action - unless it's burning fiercely.