Hardware, software and the future of flight combat sims.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by kendo65

Zapa, you are refusing to acknowledge that a key reason for COD's difficulties was that the developers over-reached themselves by being unrealistic (with hindsight, verging on reckless) about what exactly a development team of their size would be able to implement in the time available.
...........................
The state of the game at release can only be understood as a direct consequence of earlier design and development decisions.

err, emmm, well,....

NOPE !!

as in the previous il2 series, oleg used a modular concept during development, where each main component was developed separately by a different team. it is only when in the last phase of the project all the parts were being assembled that the performance problem of the gfx engine showed insurmountable problems that they couldnt fix in time for the release

the main thing we can blame oleg for in that regard is that he wasnt in the office supervising 24/7 as he had been in the previous series, and he should under normal circumstances have spotted that issue much earlier on

since the gfx engine is the main element that all the other parts are tagged onto, it not being fixed became a major issue for the whole game, and yes they then started slshing and cutting various elements that loaded the gpu and cpu, but as you well rember that didnt fix it. in the end it needed a full gfx engine rebuild (which did fix it)

Originally Posted by kendo65

Complaining now that 777 are not going to go down the same route strikes me as a willful refusal to face facts and learn the hard lessons that are all too obvious from the COD saga.

BoS is not on a different route to the same destination at all, its on a different continent and driving on the other side of the road to a completely different destination

i find it rather funny that people, including you by the looks of your latest comment, keep somehow believing this new RoF venture is going to produce the holy grail of il2sturmovik we have all been waiting for the last 5 yrs, and it just aint so folks. its not aiming to be, and it cant by its very design limitations. think re skinned RoF with ww2 aircraft instead

[addman]

When you have stellar, super-gorgeous cockpits like CloD but basic wingman commands that doesn't function properly -and still doesn't- then you know they over-reached. Ambition should drive every development team but when it starts to conflict with budget and deadlines then you need to snap back to reality and sort out your priorities. As I mentioned before, some part of CloD are absolutely spectacular but the basic things that are missing and stuff they just threw together last minute just undermines the overall experience.

Game developers aren't charity workers, they're in it to make money and especially publishers. They look at R&D expenditure and then they look at potential revenue to make their decisions which games to develop. The games market is soooo much more diverse right now and people are playing games on their consoles, on their phones, on their tablets and on their PC's. Developers are far more spread out across the board and many are a one-man team creating 99 cent apps for iOS or Android and are making good money because of low cash-burn rates. The fight for resources to develop games are getting tighter, just the other day THQ (pretty large game developer/publisher) filed for bankruptcy and they have some pretty valuable IP's in their possession. All I'm trying to say is that we are going to have to face fact that times have changed and we have to make due with what we get. The SoW project was admirably ambitious but it became it's demise, whiners or no whiners.

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by zapatista

err, emmm, well,....

NOPE !!

as in the previous il2 series, oleg used a modular concept during development, where each main component was developed separately by a different team. it is only when in the last phase of the project all the parts were being assembled that the performance problem of the gfx engine showed insurmountable problems that they couldnt fix in time for the release

the main thing we can blame oleg for in that regard is that he wasnt in the office supervising 24/7 as he had been in the previous series, and he should under normal circumstances have spotted that issue much earlier on

since the gfx engine is the main element that all the other parts are tagged onto, it not being fixed became a major issue for the whole game, and yes they then started slshing and cutting various elements that loaded the gpu and cpu, but as you well rember that didnt fix it. in the end it needed a full gfx engine rebuild (which did fix it)




BoS is not on a different route to the same destination at all, its on a different continent and driving on the other side of the road to a completely different destination

i find it rather funny that people, including you by the looks of your latest comment, keep somehow believing this new RoF venture is going to produce the holy grail of il2sturmovik we have all been waiting for the last 5 yrs, and it just aint so folks. its not aiming to be, and it cant by its very design limitations. think re skinned RoF with ww2 aircraft instead

It is clear that you are so blinded by your loyalty to CloD that you refuse to even give anything else a chance, the new IL-2 is not going to be ROF reskinned for WWII, to even think that is pretty silly considering that they have made it clear that the engine is capable of doing more and that they are doing a lot of work to make sure it feels like a WWII sim.

You seem to think that the idea of this new IL-2 is somehow a personal insult against you and the CloD community and you refuse to accept that any sim might actually be better (in the case of barely touching DCS World and deciding it was inferior just because it is not exactly like CloD, even though it is clearly superior when it comes to systems modeling, flight physics and damage model).

Some random company could make the best sim in the world, a technical marvel and you would still say it sucks compared to CloD just because it is not CloD.

CloD is a great sim but it has some clear flaws that are never going to get fixed now, it's development ended with the last steam patch and perhaps it is time we accept that fact, continue enjoying the sim but also feel free to look forward to something new, something that might actually be good.

This pissing match between "the ROF crowd" and the "IL-2 crowd" is getting tiresome, perhaps it is time to just accept that things have changed that are outside our control (and possibly for the better, we will have to give them the benefit of the doubt) instead of just saying "if it ain't CloD, it ain't a sim!".

I don't even know why I bother reading these forums, I feel like I have to take a side (because I play both ROF and CLoD) and I don't want to.

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by zapatista

...

i find it rather funny that people, including you by the looks of your latest comment, keep somehow believing this new RoF venture is going to produce the holy grail of il2sturmovik we have all been waiting for the last 5 yrs, and it just aint so folks. its not aiming to be, and it cant by its very design limitations. think re skinned RoF with ww2 aircraft instead

I really don't think the new venture is going to be the holy grail and I'm not ecstatic to be contemplating scaling back the ambition and dream of COD's vision. (though I'd given up on seeing a working, practical realisation of that vision some time ago. Maybe that's why COD's death hasn't affected me as much as it obviously has some others here. For me the COD dream died slowly and painfully 6-12 months ago)

But I think it's just too hard to say at the moment how far 1C/777 can push things in the next year to 18 months. Your characterisation that it will be ROF with WW2 aircraft is I think the most pessimistic reading possible of what the final result could be. Already in the last week there have been signs and hints that there could be fairly significant advances from the current ROF state of play with improvements to terrain, cockpits and even (possibly) DX11.

But, they seem to have made a decision right at the outset to dampen and underplay expectations - maybe a wise move given that it was partly the fall from 1C/Maddox Game's sky-high expectation to the reality of what COD was like at launch that created so much disappointment.

So, is it a very calculated case of under-promise and over-deliver from 777, or is it just the abandonment of vision and ambition for mediocrity and the art of the possible? I think it's really too early to tell, and I'm not writing any blank cheques for 777 concerning BOS. As more information becomes available and as they get a better idea of the rate of progress and how much they can do, then we will be able to judge.

Also, please remember that COD didn't cover itself in glory in its first year and a half. To hear some people you would think we were giving up a flawless and perfectly realised piece of software for a half-promise of mediocrity. COD had at least as many deep flaws and omissions to set alongside its successes, and ultimately it failed because it couldn't advance enough in the time since release to inspire the continued confidence of its investors.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by addman

When you have stellar, super-gorgeous cockpits like CloD but basic wingman commands that doesn't function properly -and still doesn't- then you know they over-reached. Ambition should drive every development team but when it starts to conflict with budget and deadlines then you need to snap back to reality and sort out your priorities. As I mentioned before, some part of CloD are absolutely spectacular but the basic things that are missing and stuff they just threw together last minute just undermines the overall experience.

Game developers aren't charity workers, they're in it to make money and especially publishers. They look at R&D expenditure and then they look at potential revenue to make their decisions which games to develop. The games market is soooo much more diverse right now and people are playing games on their consoles, on their phones, on their tablets and on their PC's. Developers are far more spread out across the board and many are a one-man team creating 99 cent apps for iOS or Android and are making good money because of low cash-burn rates. The fight for resources to develop games are getting tighter, just the other day THQ (pretty large game developer/publisher) filed for bankruptcy and they have some pretty valuable IP's in their possession. All I'm trying to say is that we are going to have to face fact that times have changed and we have to make due with what we get. The SoW project was admirably ambitious but it became it's demise, whiners or no whiners.

What is 1 million copies x 50.- .....making money

Originally Posted by startrekmike

It is clear that you are so blinded by your loyalty to CloD that you refuse to even give anything else a chance, the new IL-2 is not going to be ROF reskinned for WWII, to even think that is pretty silly considering that they have made it clear that the engine is capable of doing more and that they are doing a lot of work to make sure it feels like a WWII sim.

You seem to think that the idea of this new IL-2 is somehow a personal insult against you and the CloD community and you refuse to accept that any sim might actually be better (in the case of barely touching DCS World and deciding it was inferior just because it is not exactly like CloD, even though it is clearly superior when it comes to systems modeling, flight physics and damage model).

Some random company could make the best sim in the world, a technical marvel and you would still say it sucks compared to CloD just because it is not CloD.

CloD is a great sim but it has some clear flaws that are never going to get fixed now, it's development ended with the last steam patch and perhaps it is time we accept that fact, continue enjoying the sim but also feel free to look forward to something new, something that might actually be good.

This pissing match between "the ROF crowd" and the "IL-2 crowd" is getting tiresome, perhaps it is time to just accept that things have changed that are outside our control (and possibly for the better, we will have to give them the benefit of the doubt) instead of just saying "if it ain't CloD, it ain't a sim!".

I don't even know why I bother reading these forums, I feel like I have to take a side (because I play both ROF and CLoD) and I don't want to.

Remember that BOS battle was largely a lot of ground pounding.

Originally Posted by kendo65

I really don't think the new venture is going to be the holy grail and I'm not ecstatic to be contemplating scaling back the ambition and dream of COD's vision. (though I'd given up on seeing a working, practical realisation of that vision some time ago. Maybe that's why COD's death hasn't affected me as much as it obviously has some others here. For me the COD dream died slowly and painfully 6-12 months ago)

But I think it's just too hard to say at the moment how far 1C/777 can push things in the next year to 18 months. Your characterisation that it will be ROF with WW2 aircraft is I think the most pessimistic reading possible of what the final result could be. Already in the last week there have been signs and hints that there could be fairly significant advances from the current ROF state of play with improvements to terrain, cockpits and even (possibly) DX11.

But, they seem to have made a decision right at the outset to dampen and underplay expectations - maybe a wise move given that it was partly the fall from 1C/Maddox Game's sky-high expectation to the reality of what COD was like at launch that created so much disappointment.

So, is it a very calculated case of under-promise and over-deliver from 777, or is it just the abandonment of vision and ambition for mediocrity and the art of the possible? I think it's really too early to tell, and I'm not writing any blank cheques for 777 concerning BOS. As more information becomes available and as they get a better idea of the rate of progress and how much they can do, then we will be able to judge.

Also, please remember that COD didn't cover itself in glory in its first year and a half. To hear some people you would think we were giving up a flawless and perfectly realised piece of software for a half-promise of mediocrity. COD had at least as many deep flaws and omissions to set alongside its successes, and ultimately it failed because it couldn't advance enough in the time since release to inspire the continued confidence of its investors.

I'm flying the release and having a blast...I work around a lot of the problems. I could be flying it for years to come

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

What is 1 million copies x 50.- .....making money



Remember that BOS battle was largely a lot of ground pounding.




I'm flying the release and having a blast...I work around a lot of the problems. I could be flying it for years to come

I am aware that the battle of Stalingrad was a lot of ground pounding, I think it is still kinda silly to just assume that just because one has played ROF that one has all the knowledge available about the engines capabilities, it is like saying that you have read one book in a series so now you know how the whole series is going to go, it makes no sense.

I also enjoy CloD and I also work around it's problems, nobody is saying that BoS is going to come to your house and steal your copy of CloD, I just think that perhaps keeping a more open mind will help everyone.

Frankly, there is no need for us to argue about this, the sim is just being started and already some here seem to know exactly what will be produced and they have also already cast judgement on it.

We all know that even the hard core anti 777 guys are still going to buy BoS when it comes out, hell, they will probably even like it.

Who knows, it is too early to tell.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I was flying on ATAG Last night. 112 people at one stage flying in COD. At my 280ms ping I did not notice any warping. It was absolutely fantastic!

This is THE benchmark for any Combat Flight SIM Multiplayer experience.

I wait in anticipation to see if further titles in the IL2 series can match this performance.

Way back when ROF was released I expressed a concern about the limited player limits in the title. The ROF community immediately shot me down because apparently there were NO large scale air combats over the Western front and the places that I read about them were lying.

I stopped posting in that community shortly after.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

I am aware that the battle of Stalingrad was a lot of ground pounding, I think it is still kinda silly to just assume that just because one has played ROF that one has all the knowledge available about the engines capabilities, it is like saying that you have read one book in a series so now you know how the whole series is going to go, it makes no sense.

I also enjoy CloD and I also work around it's problems, nobody is saying that BoS is going to come to your house and steal your copy of CloD, I just think that perhaps keeping a more open mind will help everyone.

Frankly, there is no need for us to argue about this, the sim is just being started and already some here seem to know exactly what will be produced and they have also already cast judgement on it.

We all know that even the hard core anti 777 guys are still going to buy BoS when it comes out, hell, they will probably even like it.

Who knows, it is too early to tell.

You must have read me wrong, I am not at all against ROF. I'm just saying that ground pounding will require something to pound.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by startrekmike

We all know that even the hard core anti 777 guys are still going to buy BoS when it comes out, hell, they will probably even like it.

Who are these "hard core anti 777 guys of whom you speak"? Personally I think you are being too dramatic.

None of the comments expressed in this thread match the pure hatred or venom and the malicious vitriol that was directed at the developers of IL2-COD. It was as if there was a campaign trying to make them fail.

Eveyone on this form wants Jason to produce the BEST flight sim available. It's just that some people are expressing concern over parts of the project. What is wrong with that? The Best way for the BOS developers to alay those concern is to answer questions and show us some of their preliminary work that they have done.

[startrekmike]

Originally Posted by SlipBall

You must have read me wrong, I am not at all against ROF. I'm just saying that ground pounding will require something to pound.

I bet that they are more than aware of that, again, we shall have to wait and see what their solution is.

Looking back, yeah, I read you wrong, I am just so used to blind ROF hatred on this board, I understand why it exists, I just don't think it needs to be so blind.

Anyway, sorry bout that, I stand corrected