4.11 - AI debugging

[RegRag1977]

[QUOTE=Stig1207;468559]

Originally Posted by FC99

AI don't know what is your idea about their behavior, you have to tell them what you want. Things you might find logical might not be logical or desired for someone else. I guarantee you that for every stupid thing AI do in game I can find you equivalent stupidity done by humans in WWII.


Giving orders to your wingman / flight(s) under your command in a given situation during a mission is one thing, but there are other things that are basic, and a wingman who didn't know what to do if a bandit jumps on his leads tail in WWII would have been the exception, not the rule.

If a RL pilot checked six and saw a bandit in between him and his wingman, I reckon, providing they both got back to base, that the wingman would be meekly washing his (the lead's) underpants.

Sure pilots did stupid things and made mistakes, especially in the heat of combat, and AI making wrong choices, making a run for it instead of a fight, and so on is as it should be, that's realistic. However, an AI wingman that clears his lead's his tail without being ordered to do so, is also more realistic than one that doesn't.

/Stig

With all respect, I think the problem is not here: in fact the wingman should be shot at/down first, he should be asking for his leader's help in the first place, not the contrary . You would never see a pilot trying to kill a leader by placing his fighter between the target and his wingman: this is what should be changed IMHO.

But again, if a wingman is shot at, then perhaps the leader did a mistake by not seeing the one "that will kill you friend".

[Stig1207]

Originally Posted by FC99

OK, so desired behavior is to set wingman into defend leader mode when they notice the enemy with the exception of Rookies which will blindly follow the leader unless told otherwise?

What about second section, what should be default behavior of No 3 in flight(No 4 will provide cover for him)

Even a rookie, seeing a bandit on his leaders tail, would know he has try to help if he can, or at least warn his leader of the danger.

A major part of a fighter pilots duties is shooting down enemy aircraft, so why wouldn't No 3 try to shoot down the bandit that's attacking the flight leader if he's in a position to do so?

RegRag:

With all respect, I think the problem is not here: in fact the wingman should be shot at/down first, he should be asking for his leader's help in the first place, not the contrary . You would never see a pilot trying to kill a leader by placing his fighter between the target and his wingman: this is what should be changed IMHO.

I agree, but I have seen No 3 of my flight doing the same thing, flying past the wingman to attack the leader, but the difference is that the bandit wingman opens fire and No 3 breaks off, screaming for help

Also, regarding your post 230. Some may be better than others at flying wing, and even an AI wingman should not be expected to risk his 'life' trying to save his leader. But the issue here is that the AI wingman doesn't react at all to the attack on his (player) flight leader unless he is commanded to so. And that is even if the attacking bandit is flying right beside him or maybe even in his gunsight, and this is whether the wingman is a rookie or an ace, there's no difference.
It should be obvious for an AI wingman what's happening and also fairly obvious what he needs to do, but how well he does is of cause another matter.

/Stig

[Fall_Pink?]

Originally Posted by daidalos.team

@moderator: please make it a sticky

We will continue to develop and release further AI improvements in future patches. Please help us to identify any 4.11 AI related issues and post them here with detailed description, screenshots, videos, etc. Thank you.

Daidalos Team

Well, I few a few missions 4.11.1 today again (crappy cold weather outside, thus...). Some some AI moves that maybe should looked into are:

- fighters escorts that engage, then disengage and fly away, higher and higher. Then turn back in a very long dive at high speed or disengage completely and move on to their next waypoint.
- Jabo's that attack and make a pass at their target, then slightly zoom up again and want to make a hard left or right bank and steeply downwards for a second pass. This second move brings them very close to the ground and they sometimes crash.

Rgs,
FP

edit: using 4.11.1 and latest hsfx .16.

[Jumpy]

Three things That I would like fixed. AI bombers don't maintain level on bomb run. They seem to make either a shallow dive or shallow climb, level out and then drop bombs. Also jettisoning their bomb load when attacked is unrealistic. That would have been a court martial offense, at least. At the moment if I make a bomber attack mission in FMB I can cause most of the bombers to dro their bombs before they get to the target just by attacking them myself, or by being attacked by the AI fighters.
The last thing is probably just my opinion, but I think it unrealistic that the AI crews fly happily along in an aircraft that is streaming flame. In reality, if it burns, you bale!

[D-XXI]

I'd like the radar removed from the enemy AI planes ! Often, when Í'm way out of visibility range, they ignore other planes from my side and start chasing my plane all the way to my home airfield.
I would like to have a fair chance of getting home savely if I ran out of ammo/fuel or if my plane is damaged.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by FC99

AI don't know what is your idea about their behavior, you have to tell them what you want. Things you might find logical might not be logical or desired for someone else. I guarantee you that for every stupid thing AI do in game I can find you equivalent stupidity done by humans in WWII.

Yes but I would be happy if my wingman/flight just attacked the plane chasing me when I ask for cover or I ask for help from anyone.... I will have one plane in front of me and 3 trying to nail me while the rest of my flight is just flying in formation with me and I ask for help and more often than not the other 3 planes in my flight will either keep flying around or attack the plane in front of me leaving the one(s) attacking me alone to do their business. I know I have beating this horse but it is always more frustrating when it is fresher in my mind.. and I just finished a QM. Even if the plane that warned me attacked the plane it was warning me about it would be a good thing. It drives me nuts because I know pretty much that shortly after I hear "Roger I got you covered.." I'm a goner. I can tell them to attack.. ask for help.. Yet with the enemy AI when I attack one plane the whole flight goes after me. I don't want miracles. I just want them to do something and the frustrating thing is that sometimes they do quite well but they are not as frequent as I would like to see.

I just thought of something.. would it be possible to add a check 6/check MY 6 command in the "views" menu? Sometimes when I try to use the padlock so that I can tell the AI "attack my target" which works more often than not they will do it .. but far too often the target I padlock is the one in front of me, probably because he is closer instead of the one behind me. Perhaps if we had a specific "Padlock Enemy 6" command that was also server side settable like some of the other views that would enable us to padlock the enemy behind us first and then tell the AI "attack my target" and they would.. that might work. As it is now telling either my wingman or my flight "cover me" or "anyone help me" is 8 times out of 10 a waste of time because they still more often than not just fly right by the bandits and that is just so so frustrating. The enemy AI is great... but the friendly AI makes offline flying almost no fun at all...

I know that eventually you guys will sort this out.. I have higher hopes for IL2 than any oter sim that I fly and it is primarily because of TD .. but the wait is a bummer.

[Bearcat]

This prompted me to wonder.. When we get that warning as the leader does it come from our wingman? If so can a routine be written to have him attack the plane he sees? Because of the nature of the friendly AI I usually set them all t Ace for all the good it does. One thing I have noticed is that when I try to protect my flight it seems I get better help but it's spotty.

[Aviar]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Sometimes when I try to use the padlock so that I can tell the AI "attack my target" which works more often than not they will do it .. but far too often the target I padlock is the one in front of me, probably because he is closer instead of the one behind me.

If you are talking about internal Padlock, be aware that the target nearest the center of your view will be padlocked first. The proximity of targets in relationship to your plane (in terms of distance) has no factor. So, if you wish to padlock a plane on your 6, the best way is to look over your shoulder and then use the Padlock command.

Also, don't forget that you have two powerful commands for occasions when there are multiple targets in your view ---> 'Padlock Next' & 'Padlock Previous'. These will scroll through viable targets within your pilot's view.

If you are lucky enough to have enough buttons (I have a CH HOTAS), these two commands are a must, along with your main Padlock commands.

*In reference to the first part of my post, I actually have macro commands (so I only need to press one button) that will have my pilot look back over his left/right shoulder and automatically padlock an enemy plane within view. If there are no enemy planes in view behind me, the pilot's view will automatically return to the forward position. Little 'tricks' like this are invaluable to players like me who don't use TrackIR but still want a dynamic range of view options.

Aviar

[Jumpy]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

This prompted me to wonder.. When we get that warning as the leader does it come from our wingman? If so can a routine be written to have him attack the plane he sees? Because of the nature of the friendly AI I usually set them all t Ace for all the good it does. One thing I have noticed is that when I try to protect my flight it seems I get better help but it's spotty.

I think you are risking making the game too easy. Sometimes I laugh at the wingman. "who's side is he on?!" Personally, if the AI always attacked and removed threats to my 6o'clock, I might become bored and leave the game. I don't see the point. I just like trying to outfly my attacker. What I suggest is that we are able to jump to another plane if we are shot down. That would be fun, or perhaps even jump to the wingman's aircraft while our original aircraft becomes AI controlled. Then you could personally attack or chase off the attacker, and then resume control of your original aircraft. A bit like co-op play, I guess. Comments?

[Jumpy]

Originally Posted by D-XXI

I'd like the radar removed from the enemy AI planes ! Often, when Í'm way out of visibility range, they ignore other planes from my side and start chasing my plane all the way to my home airfield.
I would like to have a fair chance of getting home savely if I ran out of ammo/fuel or if my plane is damaged.

What I do is this: Fly as fast as I can. Maintain trim. Every time the engine over heat warning goes out I close the Radiator until it gets hot again. Fly very low and hug the contours of the ground and if you make it to home base:- Make sure you have set up a couple of light flack guns , 50 cal, 20mm or 25mm to defend your home airstrip. Draw the chasing plane into them. I have done this when out of ammo and been successful. It really is more fun than just flying home watching the scenery.