Spit/109 sea level speed comparisons in 1.08 beta patch

[Crumpp]

Can you reword this so it does not come accross as a bizarre contradiction?

It is not a bizarre contradiction in aerodynamics.

It is a general trend in aircraft performance. You have stumbled across the reason why designers concentrated on high speed instead of low speed performance.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by pstyle

That means the Bf-109E3 gains the initiative in the fight if the Spitfire tries to use its sustained turn advantage.

Can you reword this so it does not come accross as a bizarre contradiction?

Ah yes, he seems to be slightly confusing again. What I think he's trying to say is that a 109 turns better than a Spitfire at higher speeds - which is no news and pretty obvious, but it also has nothing to do with sustained turn times comparsions.

I'd like to see a Hurricane in the game that has better sustained turn than a Spitfire AND a 109. What we have got now is:

1 Spitfire
2 109
3 Hurricane

[Osprey]

Let me add in game speed, climb and dive to that Robo

1. 109
2. Spitfire
3. Hurricane

1. 109
2. Spitfire
3. Hurricane

1. 109
2. Spitfire
3. Hurricane

.....still willing to take the Hun on

[pstyle]

Allow me to ask again, what I'm reading in that odd sentance is;
The spitfire has an advantage, unless it tries to use it.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by pstyle

Allow me to ask again, what I'm reading in that odd sentance is;
The spitfire has an advantage, unless it tries to use it.

it roughly translates in Crumpp parlance to:

The Spitfire has an advantage until it is matched against anything German and I produce the graph to prove it'

takes a little time to learn Crumpp but it becomes reasonably predictable.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Looking at one single point in the envelope tells us the Bf-109E3 is hopelessly outclassed IF it tries to match the Spitfire at the Spitfires best performance velocity.

No, it says the Spitfire at its best turn performance velocity beats the 109 at its best turn performance velocity. According to these figures, the 109 cannot outturn a Spitfire in a sustained turning fight at sea level unless the Spitfire lets it happen, however, the Spitfire can outturn the 109 in said scenario no matter what the 109 does.

[JtD]

Originally Posted by pstyle

The spitfire has an advantage, unless it tries to use it.

Great summary. I guess that's the way he put it, but it boils down to the statement that the faster plane generally holds the advantage. This remains true in turnfights. The 109 has the choice to maintain the higher airspeed at a lower corner velocity, the Spitfire has the choice to maintain a higher corner velocity at a lower airspeed, so the 109 can maintain the initiative.

It should be noted that on Crumpps chart the 109 has a level speed advantage of ~18 knots, however representative that is for a BoB scenario.

[Crumpp]

Feel free to calculate it yourselves!!

which is no news and pretty obvious, but it also has nothing to do with sustained turn times comparsions.

The performance is the sustained envelope. It is just over the entire envelope both aircraft can sustain instead of just choosing one single point.


So it is everything to do with sustained turn time comparisions as it IS A SUSTAINED TURN TIME COMPARISION under the same condition of flight. At the same altitude and airspeed, that is how the relative performance will play out.


You do understand the Spitfire and BF-109 do not achieve their best turn performance under the same conditions of flight?

[Crumpp]

It should be noted that on Crumpps chart the 109 has a level speed advantage of ~18 knots, however representative that is for a BoB scenario.

It was manufacturer's data for each type.

There is a wide range of data available on both types. Choose what you want.....

[Crumpp]

The Spitfire has an advantage until it is matched against anything German and I produce the graph to prove it'

Do the math...it does not lie.