Throwing some light on rates of turn

[pstyle]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

I have not examined any of the FM's in any detail since I got the game. I just noted how easy it was to spin the Bf-109E and the impossibility of breaking the Spitfire Mk I airframe on a dive pullout from 400mph IAS with full left rudder and full back elevator violently applied.
.

I've not tested the Spit 1, but I do have a video of me breaking the wing of a Spit IIa recovering from a 430mph dive (which is as fast as I could get her to dive), with full (/ almost full) elevator and rudder deflection.

Let me know if you'd like me to upload it.

I'll try the Spit 1 soon.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

I have not examined any of the FM's in any detail since I got the game. I just noted how easy it was to spin the Bf-109E ...

I would say it's quite the opposite. So are the reports of my fellow Squadmates flying 109s exclusively. I'd say it's much less stable now and not as responsive as it used to be. They have definitely tinkered with the imput sensitivity, it took me a while to get used to it, but no, the 109E is not easy to spin.

Originally Posted by Crumpp

..and the impossibility of breaking the Spitfire Mk I airframe on a dive pullout from 400mph IAS with full left rudder and full back elevator violently applied.

You can break a wing of a Spitfire doing just what you described.

Originally Posted by Crumpp

I am willing to bet the FM's are closer than one would think in terms of level speed and climb rates.

No, I am afraid they are absolutely not.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

Hmmm.....did you also notice that in a flat out dive, it's very difficult to get over 410mph IAS, and at 420mph IAS your ailerons fall off?

According to the Spit I pilot's notes provided with the collector's edition, max safe speed in a dive is 450mph IAS.

I lost my starboard wing last night in a steep dive on the ATAG Server, but did not note the airspeed at that moment -- obviously 420 mph IAS or more. But both your observations and Crumpp's point to some further tweaking on that aspect of the Spit's DM.

@Crumpp -- I agree that something serious should have broken (or at least bent) with a hard "assymmetrical" (is that the right term? Dunno!) pullout such as you did. Did you black out during the pullout? My reason for asking is that other threads are noting that full control surface deflection is not being achieved with the Spitfire under random circumstances. That would've resulted in a gentler pullout than you had intended, provided you had enough altitude to recover. But if you did experience blackout in the pullout that would be a fair indicator that the elevator was indeed doing its job as you intended -- and something should've gone crunch IMHO. (I've crunched lotsa virtual Spits and Hurries in Cliffs of Dover LOL).

[ATAG_Snapper]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumpp
"I have not examined any of the FM's in any detail since I got the game. I just noted how easy it was to spin the Bf-109E ..."

Robo replied:
"I would say it's quite the opposite. So are the reports of my fellow Squadmates flying 109s exclusively. I'd say it's much less stable now and not as responsive as it used to be. They have definitely tinkered with the imput sensitivity, it took me a while to get used to it, but no, the 109E is not easy to spin. "


Hmmm, I think your observations actually coincide. I believe Crumpp is simply referring to incipient spin occurring upon accelerated stall -- which is apparently happening too easily and viciously (for a 109) since the latest patch. Maybe I'm wrong, but that was my impression.

[pstyle]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

@Crumpp -- I agree that something serious should have broken (or at least bent) with a hard "assymmetrical" (is that the right term? Dunno!) pullout such as you did. Did you black out during the pullout? My reason for asking is that other threads are noting that full control surface deflection is not being achieved with the Spitfire under random circumstances. That would've resulted in a gentler pullout than you had intended, provided you had enough altitude to recover. But if you did experience blackout in the pullout that would be a fair indicator that the elevator was indeed doing its job as you intended -- and something should've gone crunch IMHO. (I've crunched lotsa virtual Spits and Hurries in Cliffs of Dover LOL).

Just now I tested a spit 1, dive at 400mph indicated and I pulled back as hard as possible, with a full rudder. Nothing broke, and my pilot blacked out momentarily. Although at 430mph dive, I broke the spit 2a wing.

It seems to me the limit is between 400 and 430mph (taking both variants to be roughly equivalent.)

I made videos of both. happy to distribute the track file if necessary for proof.

[Crumpp]

Looks like you are doing some intense testing there Crumpp. Maybe a test pilot in a former life.

LOL, Not really...that test would be a death sentence in a real aircraft.

It was a simple test. If you are above ~238mph EAS you should be able to break the airframe in a Spitfire Mk I with a single axis load.

By assymetrically loading the airframe, that speed is greatly reduced. The airframe should turn to confetti.

A dive over 300 mph EAS at full control deflection with an assymetrical load is pretty definative and easy to do.

[Crumpp]

Did you black out during the pullout?

It started too as I reached the top of the apex of the loop. It did not black out though.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

LOL, Not really...that test would be a death sentence in a real aircraft.

It was a simple test. If you are above ~238mph EAS you should be able to break the airframe in a Spitfire Mk I with a single axis load.

By assymetrically loading the airframe, that speed is greatly reduced. The airframe should turn to confetti.

A dive over 300 mph EAS at full control deflection with an assymetrical load is pretty definative and easy to do.

Are there V-n diagrams for these aircraft available online anywhere?

[Crumpp]

I believe Crumpp is simply referring to incipient spin occurring upon accelerated stall -- which is apparently happening too easily and viciously (for a 109) since the latest patch.

That is it.

LE slats are the aerodynamic equivilent of training wheels. Putting them at the wing tips like the Bf-109 does not do much for raising anything more than the section co-efficient of lift but it does keep the ailerons responsive, make for very good stall characteristics, and it is one of the best anti-spin devices a designer can use.

The stall characteristics of the Bf-109 are very gentle, controllable, and offers plenty of warning:

4.4. Stalling Tests.

http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/...ls/Morgan.html

[Crumpp]

Are there V-n diagrams for these aircraft available online anywhere?

Not that I am aware of but you can easily make one.