Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

They did rush it!!'

If we take January 1942 as the time the conversion for Spitfire Mk I's was complete that represents about two years and four months between initial flight test and 100% ground operational adoption.

Compare that to the RLM's testing of 1.58ata/1.65 ata as a straight manifold pressure increase in the BMW801D2. The motor was tested at that manifold pressure in May 1942. It was not until July 1944 that we see it in the Flugzueg Handbuch for the FW-190A8. That is a two years and two months lag time. Do you not think the RLM was rushing this improvement, too?

Now you are an expert on processes in engineering companies. Who'd have thunk it

Originally Posted by Glider

What is your training and background?

He's been an "Advisor to the Experts" for several years now.

[Flanker35M]

S!

That conversion to new plane is nothing new. Same happened here to our pilots being transferred from older types like Brewster, Curtiss Hawk etc. to the Bf109G..most only got instructions on what whas what and what to check and note and off you go

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

They did rush it!!'

If we take January 1942 as the time the conversion for Spitfire Mk I's was complete that represents about two years and four months between initial flight test and 100% ground operational adoption.

We don't..

Just found this. From the list of mkI serial numbers in M&S...

All spitfires built after the 1/6/1939 were Merlin III. Only 74 were Merlin II

On the 22nd March 1940 a letter from MAC ordered the change of production and specified that all MKI's were to have the Merlin X installed, starting from Serial Number R7023. This was to bring them upto MkIII standard. events overtook this instruction and from R7258 Merlin 45's were fitted, thus bringing the Mk I upto MkV spec. Why would they do this in march

R7023 was built on 28/1/1941 R7258 was completed on 5/4/1941

Every single spitfire produced after that date was a Merlin 45.

Simple fact is there were no operational mkI's around in 1942. Any that had survived that long were in OTU's all the others were converted to MkV's or PR's or whatever..

[lane]

Originally Posted by Glider

Still trying to trying to work out how you can make such a massive interpretation based on a SPit 1 Manual for 1942, and ignore the official papers that cleared the Spit for use of 100 octane in 1939. Remembering that you agree that all Spit II units were using 100 Octane in mid 1940 and presumably agree that the Spit V would have used 100 Octane.

The first Spitfire into service was delivered to No. 19 Squadron at Duxford on 4 August 1938. The use of 100 octane fuel was approved for Spitfire Squadrons by 24 September 1938.32 Fighter Command noted on 6 December 1938 that Duxford, Debden, Northholt and Digby had received 100 octane fuel.32b As of December 1938 Nos. 19 and 66 were based at Duxford and were the only RAF units then equipped with Spitfires. The Air Ministry noted in a memo dated 12 December 1939 that "100 octane fuel is approved for use in Hurricane, Spitfire and Defiant aircraft, and state that issue will be made as soon as the fuel is available in bulk at the distribution depots serving the Fighter Stations concerned." 32c

24 September 1938


6 December 1938


14 November 1939


12 December 1939

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Osprey,

Extra-ordinary...

Spitfire prototype, first flight march 1936, first production Spit delivered to a Squadron, August 1938. They "rushed" that too.

[Crumpp]

Now you are an expert on processes in engineering companies.

Typical Flight testing regiment:



One thing you will not see in this process is the what is termed the "phase III" testing. That is not done by the service and is the responsibility of the contractor, in this case, Rolls Royce.

Phase I is concept development and is also performed by the contractor.

In 1939 we see the Phase II testing which is a proof of concept type testing and is performed by the service. We don't see the Phase I or Phase III testing as they are not done by the RAF. Any documentation is the sole property of Rolls Royce.

After Phase III testing, the concept will then come back to the service for Phase IV testing.

consisted of a very thorough evaluation of all the aircraft's operating characteristics . The pilots handbook, or flight manual, was published as a result of the work in this phase. Completion of Phase IV led to introduction of the aircraft in to the using command inventory. However, additional testing to evaluate tactical application and operational utility was conducted by agencies such as the Air Proving Ground Command.

From:

Ok, what about the Mustang?

Extra-ordinary...

Outliers are not examples of a mean.

[Osprey]

I work with Rolls-Royce and I'm pretty sure they don't use protocol from the 1981 flight testing conference in Las Vegas, let alone had the forsight to use it 42 years before the conference.

One of our lads operates CNC's for RR too, making compressor blades for jet engines. I'll ask him if your stuff has any relevance whatsoever, although I think I know the answer already......

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Typical Flight testing regiment:



One thing you will not see in this process is the what is termed the "phase III" testing. That is not done by the service and is the responsibility of the contractor, in this case, Rolls Royce.

Phase I is concept development and is also performed by the contractor.

In 1939 we see the Phase II testing which is a proof of concept type testing and is performed by the service. We don't see the Phase I or Phase III testing as they are not done by the RAF. Any documentation is the sole property of Rolls Royce.

After Phase III testing, the concept will then come back to the service for Phase IV testing.



From:






Extra-ordinary...

Outliers are not examples of a mean.

Lovely but absolutely irrelevant, all I have to do is check the dates. What happened happened. I REPEAT, THERE WERE NO OPERATIONAL MKIs IN 1942. Why are they, according to you, still converting them? When by your own admission it was only operational a/c that were converted.

This is another example of you thinking that because you have expertise in engineering and warbirds restoration that whatever you say is right. Well, I'm an expert on the Battle of Britain. I simply wouldn't even entertain the idea of arguing with you about piloting, restoration or engineering because I don't doubt your credentials. Yet in the face of overwhelming evidence both hard and circumstantial you're still arguing. Why? Is it to save face.

Please sum up for me your argument in a concise way, as to why you say that fighter command hadn't completed the changeover in it's frontline Spitfires to 100 octane fuel by the beginning of summer 1940.

Because that's what this is about. You've tried all sorts of different arguments and seem to move stealthily around the subject, but come come, let's cut the crap and cut to the chase.

What have you got to lose?

Edit : changed frontline fighters to frontline spitfires.

[Crumpp]

What is your training and background?

Ten years on the Board of Directors for a Warbird Restoration Company, MAS Embry Riddle, BSAS Embry Riddle, FAA Repairman certificate, COMM ASEL IR CFI/II/MEI/Taildragger.

Own and operate two of my own aircraft.

And what are your qualifications, Glider?

[Crumpp]

Lovely but absolutely irrelevant, all I have to do is check the dates.

First the principles are all the same by convention just as how the Operating Notes are updated.

Second, the AIAA 81-2375 is the history of flight test development!!

If you could access the AIAA library, you could get your own copy.

Maybe on some standard day they might let you in!! Ha ha ha

You have to graduate from an accredited Aeronautical Sciences curriculum for membership.

https://www.aiaa.org/