109 elevator trim

[Flanker35M]

S!

It would better if he could post straight here without messengers in between to get the message thru once and for all

[irR4tiOn4L]

I find that some of you, right or wrong, can be exceptionally aggressive about your views, at times. I think back to the thread on the Revi gunsight and the hysterical knee-jerking that went on there before, after dozens of pages, some finally calmed down enough to realise they have two eyes whose images the brain readily combines and that it may well be possible that the revi worked without looking directly through it with BOTH eyes. Before that point, however, these same people, who were ultimately wrong, let off such a tirade against a poster presenting careful analysis and evidence that you would think the guy was Hitler himself come to defend Nazism, no better expressed than by none other than the Revi gunsight.

I didn't participate, but I think that discussion, and many others, would have been much simpler if people were not so quick to pounce and judge the views of others. Certainly not before they have given their thoughts and their own thoughts good consideration and in the absence of any sign of malice by the other party.

While I see good reason to doubt whether moving a trim wheel some 2 full rotations was possible in under 5 seconds, and therefore that the time should be extended ingame, I don't think the case has been so thoroughly made out flanker that an expert should post here "to get the message through once and for all".

That's a bit condescending, it seems to me, of the people here who I think have simply taken two legitimate although not equally valid views on quite ambiguous (as yet) 'evidence'. We shouldn't hammer a point home before it has been made out.

[Flanker35M]

AS!

I understand your point Irrational. But if a guy with access to aREAL Bf109 can confirm exactly how fast or slow you can adjust the trim it would cut the useless yadda yadda. And asit sems he has experience of flying and restoring WW2 planes and that is worth a lot more than speculation don't you think?

I for sure would like to have things modelled as well as a game permits,regardless which 'side' the plane represents. That would benefit us all equally. Even I fly mostly the so called blue planes I do not want reds have any irritating bugs or blue..if they can be fixed the better. One sided combat is boring.

So re-phrasing it. Let's wish the guy can provide insight on this matter.

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

AS!

I understand your point Irrational. But if a guy with access to aREAL Bf109 can confirm exactly how fast or slow you can adjust the trim it would cut the useless yadda yadda. And asit sems he has experience of flying and restoring WW2 planes and that is worth a lot more than speculation don't you think?

I for sure would like to have things modelled as well as a game permits,regardless which 'side' the plane represents. That would benefit us all equally. Even I fly mostly the so called blue planes I do not want reds have any irritating bugs or blue..if they can be fixed the better. One sided combat is boring.

So re-phrasing it. Let's wish the guy can provide insight on this matter.

Flanker, I appreciate your re-phrasing. I absolutely agree with the substance of your posts and would love to have someone who has tried the real 109 report back. I too place accuracy of the modelling first and foremost and believe that in a simulator, 'balance' between vehicles has little, if any, applicability. No plane should be changed because its virtual pilots are at disadvantages that applied in real life. That goes for the mechanical guages, carburetors, etc too.

But I find the MANNER, not the INTENT, of some posts and posters corrosive to good discussion. It is like there is an assumption here that people here are self interested afficianados (who dont care about realistic portrayals) of just one or the other side's planes and will resist any and all changes for their benefit. This constant struggle between 'blue' and 'red' pilots is getting a little tiring, frankly.

I just think that the language you are using is jumping the gun - a lot. As near as I can tell, everyone in this thread is just as interested in getting to the truth about trimming and how quickly it could be done. They just seem to disagree somewhat on the present evidence.

[Crumpp]

That 'thing' is actually a video from A2A dev. team

Who cares?? A gaming company and he is not in the air....

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Who cares?? A gaming company and he is not in the air....

Everybody cares, Crumpp, but you.

irR4tiOn4L - good points. It's sort of typical for this kind of forums I am afraid.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Well, this forum differs very little if any from others so blame the kettle or pot Only worse was maybe UbiZoo. I admit sometimes being a bit too aggressive in postings, but working on that I really enjoy reading discussions with good points/info/data/whatever where the EGO of the posters is pushed aside and issues are seen as they really are, not as a matter of pride etc.

This Bf109 trim issue could be settled more or less if this guy mentioned could share his insight with the plane and flying WW2 planes in general. Ideal would be if the community would have people who are heavily involved with WW2 planes, either flying and restoring/repairing them or both. A true treasure trove of which all would benefit in a positive way.

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!

Well, this forum differs very little if any from others so blame the kettle or pot Only worse was maybe UbiZoo. I admit sometimes being a bit too aggressive in postings, but working on that I really enjoy reading discussions with good points/info/data/whatever where the EGO of the posters is pushed aside and issues are seen as they really are, not as a matter of pride etc.

This Bf109 trim issue could be settled more or less if this guy mentioned could share his insight with the plane and flying WW2 planes in general. Ideal would be if the community would have people who are heavily involved with WW2 planes, either flying and restoring/repairing them or both. A true treasure trove of which all would benefit in a positive way.

Agreed, I just wanted to say those things so that arguments would be forestalled.

I should say one thing on the trim issue though - even though I said balance has little application, changing an issue (short trim times) that is inaccurate on all planes (from what has been said) on only one plane (BF109) works against balance and does not work to promote overall realism, even if one issue (bf109 trim) is sorted.

I think you have to be careful to maintain macro realism, even at the expense of micro realism. Sometimes, when you are dealing with something that will affect balance, you have to be careful to implement changes in a balanced way.

What this means is that if the trim is wrong on all planes, it should not be just the 109's that is singled out for attention. I have so far seen this swept under the rug in this thread, as if the 109's trim was somehow a bigger problem than that of other planes. But I'm not convinced that is true. Especially considering that pilots have reported that the 109's trim wheel was quicker and easier to use than that of many other competing designs, it should not be the case ingame that it becomes the hardest plane to trim.

[Al Schlageter]

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ricane-109.pdf

see 5.

Note the comment by the pilot of the 109 saying the trim adjustment was heavy. In other words, it was not easy to rotate the wheel.

No wonder the 190 went to an electrical trim for the stab.

[irR4tiOn4L]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ricane-109.pdf

see 5.

Note the comment by the pilot of the 109 saying the trim adjustment was heavy. In other words, it was not easy to rotate the wheel.

No wonder the 190 went to an electrical trim for the stab.

That was in a dive, where the 109's controls were all very heavy! That is not representative of how heavy the trim might be in a horizontal maneuver. Additionally, others have said the large wheel made it easier than competing designs, and I don't think we should be looking at the 109 trim in isolation.

What SHOULD be taken into accound in CLOD, and is not, however, is the reputed heaviness of the 109's controls in a dive. I've never had to use trim to pull out of a high speed dive in CLOD, and I feel that I should.

What is also interesting out of your linked notes is that the 109 lacked oxygen gear - would this result in a higher effective ceiling for the red fighters?

Extremely interesting also is the pilot's notes on the tendency of the Hurricane pilot to black out where the 109 pilot would not. Initially I read this as pulling more G's, but in actuality, they are saying that the pilots of a hurricane sat more vertically and had a tendency to black out even in similar g maneuvers! I definitely don't see blackout tendencies modelled in the sim, and that would make it rather interesting, wouldn't it, if the 109's pilots could sustain more g without blacking out!

We shouldn't pay attention to just one aspect of that pilot's report.