Will SoW be boring and superficial?

[DK-nme]

Hi Feathered and everybody else.

What a great and fantastic idea. If what you originally wrote and suggested in this thread could be implemented in the game, on-line as well as single player, it would become more of a dynamic campaign game, than the static il-2 game – on-line gaming can be a bit boring from time to time (identical objectives on different maps).

I imagine, after having read your thread (I got inspired), that 1 or 2 (or perhaps multiple) players could choose to fly secret missions (other missions than the usual bomber and fighter-sweeps, provided on-line pt.).
These different missions could be photo-recon (gather intell.) missions or the like over enemy territory, much like what feathered suggested, and if handled correctly, thus unlock new and more ‘hidden’ objectives (multiple objectives on each map).

The ‘hidden’ objectives could also be hidden to the enemy forces and should be very difficult to complete (an alternative, to the main objectives), but by completing these new ‘hidden’ objectives, one could simply win the map.

The ‘hidden’ objectives (type and position) could be chosen and placed randomly by the ‘program’ (the game), so that no 2 missions would be alike.

(Hopefully, you all get my point) – again, a very original, interesting and inspiring post…


DK-nme

[Former_Older]

So let me get this straight

having dogfights and dropping bombs is boring and superficial? Is that what I'm reading?

Gotta disagree 100%. Just because some people are jaded and "bored" does not mean that these things are boring...just that you're bored with them becasue you've done them a lot. Also, I have to say that if this is a sign of a "superficial" combat flight sim, then what exactly give a combat flight sim depth? A career mode for a trans-Atlantic cargo pilot? Don't lose sight of the whole idea behind this type of sim, just because you've flown a bunch of missions that are the same

Dogfight servers and offline missions that present you with cookie cutter "dogfight strafe and bomb" missions that are all alike seem to be the issue, to me

This is not to say I think that ops should be strictly fight fight fight fight fight. I didn't happen that way. But the premise of this whole thread is that the way the sim works is a problem, not that the types of missions in it are not viable- but what is said is that what we do now is boring, and shallow

Having a greater range of missions is a good goal and I want it too. But let's not lose sight of the fact that combat is what combat flight sims are all about

Get more variety in the missions, absolutely. But this "Boring and superficial" thing? You guys are flying some really poorly constructed ops if you ask me

[tater]

I think the issue for online is that in il-2, there are only 2 types, DF, and coop. DF invariably becomes streams of planes that collide in a meeting engagement. Fresh planes are constantly added. The very first sortie is frequently the most interesting because everyone can TO at once.

Coops solve the serial spawning problem at the expense of new blood being able to come in at will.

It has been suggested before to allow players to spawn into AI planes in flight. Oleg said this would be in SoW. This is a HUGE boon to online since it bridges the gap between coop and DF. Really, the best of both worlds. I could imagine a server where at 10pm MST I might login to the server and find a mission in progress, but with NO PLAYERS logged in. I select a B-25, and poof! I get an airstart with the squadron en route to Buna from PM. A few minutes later, another pilot joins me. A little after that, a squad night loads up a half dozen flying japanese.

This would allow the immersion of well-constructed coop missions with more realistic ops, AND the ability to join in the middle of the mission.

In my example above, one of the japanese pilots gets shot down by a tail gunner on his first pass. With this paradigm he can respawn, he'll just take over an AI plane in flight.

[Feathered_IV]

Former Older, your lack of vision is deeply dissapointing.

Oleg will never prosper banging out the same two mission types over and over again. I doesn't matter where you place your waypoints or what planeset you choose. I just isn't enough. Oleg knows this now. The whole experience of developing the Il-2/FB and the clamour for new content has proven that his next sim will have to be massively expandable or he will die.

You think developing Il-2 Sturmovik was so amazingly lucrative for him, he's going to use the same strategy again???

If he is going to make a decent living out of this (SoW) he needs to give the game far more substance than his present sim has. Detailed graphics and modelling, however brilliant, will not put his son through university. He needs to declare war on Microsoft and try and steal the flying-club crowds that make up the majority of FSX's fan base. Not the 747 vs ATC flyers, but rather the short-hop enthusiasts who want to take a Tiger Moth from Croydon to Dover, or some other vintage aircraft through a thunderhead. He needs to build in the perameters to satisfy both the dogfight and the vintage enthusiast crowd.

Don't kid yourself thinking that Oleg will ever retire comfortably on the few pissing dollars that you and I will send his way. Remember the flight sim convention that Mystic Puma filmed awhile back? Rows and rows of companies representing their wares for additions to Microsoft's FS series. Thousands of enthusiasts standing three deep at those booths, while Oleg and Luthier sat on plastic chairs in the corner with an early beta of SoW and just a handful of il-2 fans stopping by.

He needs to expand his fan base massively to survive. He knows this. Are you suggesting that he will provide such a complete combat experience, that new players will flood in? From where? From Counterstrike and Quake servers?
No. If he is going to win over anyone in large numbers, it has to come from the already massive FS community and industry. These people are already predisposed to the notion of flight sims. Oleg just needs to capture the vintage aircraft market by doing it better than MS can. Let them have their passenger jets and flights into Los Angeles, but Oleg needs to take a big bite out of the rest. Five years from now, we need to see every third-party commercial release both FSX and SoW compatible. We need thousands of enthusiasts at flight sim conventions standing three-deep at booths selling wares for SoW.

The Storm of War doesn't need to be over the Channel. It needs to be an all-out assault on Microsoft. Some people are quite content to take off, hit 8x time skip and pick their nose all the way to the target. But that won't make Oleg rich. It will hardly shift 35000 copies before SoW goes into the bargain bin.

[Feathered_IV]

Hehe. Half a bottle of Vin de Vitriol when I wrote that. You get the gist though

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

Hehe. Half a bottle of Vin de Vitriol when I wrote that. You get the gist though

I had a hang over while I was reading it, so it made perfect sense to me. I fear everyone else might be out in the cold though. )

[DK-nme]

Hi Tater and everybody else.

I find ur idea even better than mine. Hopefully, Oleg and his team is already considering development changes like these (Feathered and ur ideas, i.e.)...


DK-nme

[Former_Older]

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

Former Older, your lack of vision is deeply dissapointing.

Oleg will never prosper banging out the same two mission types over and over again. I doesn't matter where you place your waypoints or what planeset you choose. I just isn't enough. Oleg knows this now. The whole experience of developing the Il-2/FB and the clamour for new content has proven that his next sim will have to be massively expandable or he will die.

You think developing Il-2 Sturmovik was so amazingly lucrative for him, he's going to use the same strategy again???

If he is going to make a decent living out of this (SoW) he needs to give the game far more substance than his present sim has. Detailed graphics and modelling, however brilliant, will not put his son through university. He needs to declare war on Microsoft and try and steal the flying-club crowds that make up the majority of FSX's fan base. Not the 747 vs ATC flyers, but rather the short-hop enthusiasts who want to take a Tiger Moth from Croydon to Dover, or some other vintage aircraft through a thunderhead. He needs to build in the perameters to satisfy both the dogfight and the vintage enthusiast crowd.

Don't kid yourself thinking that Oleg will ever retire comfortably on the few pissing dollars that you and I will send his way. Remember the flight sim convention that Mystic Puma filmed awhile back? Rows and rows of companies representing their wares for additions to Microsoft's FS series. Thousands of enthusiasts standing three deep at those booths, while Oleg and Luthier sat on plastic chairs in the corner with an early beta of SoW and just a handful of il-2 fans stopping by.

He needs to expand his fan base massively to survive. He knows this. Are you suggesting that he will provide such a complete combat experience, that new players will flood in? From where? From Counterstrike and Quake servers?
No. If he is going to win over anyone in large numbers, it has to come from the already massive FS community and industry. These people are already predisposed to the notion of flight sims. Oleg just needs to capture the vintage aircraft market by doing it better than MS can. Let them have their passenger jets and flights into Los Angeles, but Oleg needs to take a big bite out of the rest. Five years from now, we need to see every third-party commercial release both FSX and SoW compatible. We need thousands of enthusiasts at flight sim conventions standing three-deep at booths selling wares for SoW.

The Storm of War doesn't need to be over the Channel. It needs to be an all-out assault on Microsoft. Some people are quite content to take off, hit 8x time skip and pick their nose all the way to the target. But that won't make Oleg rich. It will hardly shift 35000 copies before SoW goes into the bargain bin.

What rubbish. You're raving here, I didn't post half of the things you are talking about; but you behave as if I had said them. Your comments about imagination are utter tripe- sorry, but you have no idea what you're about on that count. Quite to the contrary, you are the one who is shackled into one way of thinking. if the booze has worn off, you can see where I advocate not only a better system in the sim, but mission types in addition to just fight fight fight fight

I know you, and you know me. Have for years, if you haven't figured out who I am yet. Not only do I have missions that are in excess of "fight strafe bomb" in campaigns I make, but they have been out for over a year. Unarmed recon, escort in heavy weather with no enemy contact but difficult navigation, etc. So excuse me when I say you're off in left field, you just don't know what I said- which is not exactly MY fault, now is it? I can quote my last post to refresh your memory of what I DID say if that helps you out

Post when you're sober, or don't post. It doesn't impress me when you rant and rave about things I'm not talking about, especially when you post drunk. And doubly so when your only excuse is 'you get the gist'

No, no I don't. Maybe I would if I had defended limited mission types, simplistic ops, and cripplingly mundane mission goals. But since I didn't do that, I can't quite understand your crazy moon-talk. And as I have proved by doing it, you can address those limiting factors to a degree in this sim- but again, if you are still in a boozy haze- I am NOT saying that the system we have for making missions in this sim is a good one- what I AM saying is that it seems that you're flying some really dull boring and unimaginative missions

[proton45]

Originally Posted by Feathered_IV

Former Older, your lack of vision is deeply dissapointing.

Oleg will never prosper banging out the same two mission types over and over again. I doesn't matter where you place your waypoints or what planeset you choose. I just isn't enough. Oleg knows this now. The whole experience of developing the Il-2/FB and the clamour for new content has proven that his next sim will have to be massively expandable or he will die.

You think developing Il-2 Sturmovik was so amazingly lucrative for him, he's going to use the same strategy again???

If he is going to make a decent living out of this (SoW) he needs to give the game far more substance than his present sim has. Detailed graphics and modelling, however brilliant, will not put his son through university. He needs to declare war on Microsoft and try and steal the flying-club crowds that make up the majority of FSX's fan base. Not the 747 vs ATC flyers, but rather the short-hop enthusiasts who want to take a Tiger Moth from Croydon to Dover, or some other vintage aircraft through a thunderhead. He needs to build in the perameters to satisfy both the dogfight and the vintage enthusiast crowd.

Don't kid yourself thinking that Oleg will ever retire comfortably on the few pissing dollars that you and I will send his way. Remember the flight sim convention that Mystic Puma filmed awhile back? Rows and rows of companies representing their wares for additions to Microsoft's FS series. Thousands of enthusiasts standing three deep at those booths, while Oleg and Luthier sat on plastic chairs in the corner with an early beta of SoW and just a handful of il-2 fans stopping by.

He needs to expand his fan base massively to survive. He knows this. Are you suggesting that he will provide such a complete combat experience, that new players will flood in? From where? From Counterstrike and Quake servers?
No. If he is going to win over anyone in large numbers, it has to come from the already massive FS community and industry. These people are already predisposed to the notion of flight sims. Oleg just needs to capture the vintage aircraft market by doing it better than MS can. Let them have their passenger jets and flights into Los Angeles, but Oleg needs to take a big bite out of the rest. Five years from now, we need to see every third-party commercial release both FSX and SoW compatible. We need thousands of enthusiasts at flight sim conventions standing three-deep at booths selling wares for SoW.

The Storm of War doesn't need to be over the Channel. It needs to be an all-out assault on Microsoft. Some people are quite content to take off, hit 8x time skip and pick their nose all the way to the target. But that won't make Oleg rich. It will hardly shift 35000 copies before SoW goes into the bargain bin.

Ignoring most of your raving (or was it a rant?_LOL)...I gotta say that I never thought of IL2's "saving grace" being in the form of FSX...although Oleg has said many times that "BoB SoW" will be "much more open" to 3rd party add-ons and that we will be given "tools to do some modding with" after the "BoB" release...

I don't think that this whole idea of yours is an either or scenario. The "flight sim" and "flight combat" scene is a pretty small world and I think that their is a pretty good chance that anyone who would be interested in these games would just buy both of them, but I do think that their is a slightly better chance of expanding the customer base from the combat side of the argument more then from the flight-sim side...

I DON'T see "BoB SoW" becoming a FPS (please no, ever) however I could see the potential for expanding the "BoB SoW" battlefield to include a strategic element. My thought is that on-line games could have (real) humans commanding the movement and actions of tank columns, artillery battery's, ships, (with the option of being able to target the enemy from a flak gun or a tank turret) and maybe even supply. Perhaps targeting the enemy could be a team effort with downed pilots taking over from the AI (and communicating on team speak)... I don't see the "BoB SoW" game becoming a Strategic computer game (or like "WW2 on-line") but I do think that on-line missions, co-op's and campaigns would be a lot more challenging if the ground defenses or tank column's had a human brain behind them... Just imagine bombing campaigns or search and destroy ground pounding party's where the enemy has a real brain (cunning and foibles included)

[Feathered_IV]

Apologies Former Older (Chuck_Older?) you are right that I did indeed write in reference to stuff that was not in your own post. Sorry about that! The thought that Oleg really needs to win a large portion of MS's client base to turn a decent profit has been on my mind for some time. I digressed there quite a bit

MS is still remarkably indulgent towards the FS genre for such a huge company. I wonder how nasty they would get if Maddox Games started to make inroads into their 'showpiece'.