Is anyone level bombing in the HE-111?

[nadasero]

Blackdog

That is more or less how it is done.

Unfortunately, I don't have any histrocal data about the autopilots in those maschines. I just did some testflights and found this to be the best way to do it. It is strange, that the developers are spending lots of time, to build those functions in to the simulation and then there is not a single word in the manuals about how they work and even that they exist. How are we supposed to find out?

The speed in your Point 8 it not that important. The speed is entered for an first estimation. The exact speed is measured with the croshair. The speed and the movement to the side has to be corrected until the croshair remains on a position. This eliminates the influence of the wind. Now, the bomb sight knows the exact speed over Ground and the course it is moving. The course can be changed with the AP and the bombing is done with the automatic.

If everything is done correctly and the drops are still short, it is a misinterpretation of the speed in the simulation. (The ground crew has to recalibrate the equipment).

It may be that it is on purpose. If a series of 8 Bombs is selected, it might be a good idea to drop the first bombs early in order to hit the taget with the Bombs in the middle. In this case, a single bomb would drop later than the first of a series.

Actually the german Lotfe is kind of a copy of the Norden device used in US Bombers. I have done a lot of flights on the B17 with the Mighty 8th on the Amiga (a millenium ago). So the Lotfe was pretty familliar to me. At that time, they had about 500 pages of manual just for the B17 in a game that was much simpler than anything we have today.

[Blackdog_kt]

Thanks for the reply Nadasero. I also spent a lot of time with B-17 II:The mighty 8th back in the day and i remember the automated bombsight as well

You are correct about speed, it's just an initial estimation and then you fine tune by watching how it tracks the target.

What i'm not sure about is the speed conversions, as the bomb sight tracks a bit fast:

Originally Posted by jimbop

Blackdog, that is the 'correct' way to do it and I can confirm that AP 2 does work very well. Extremely stable after the initial descent to ~300 KPH so thanks for that, nadasero.

Your step 10 needs a modification: ensure the crosshairs stay on the target by manual adjustment with the Sight Up control. The MPH velocity setting, whilst correct for the RELEASE timing is incorrect for the SIGHT timing. Annoying, to say the least.

So, we need to use TAS in mph, the release distance is calculated correctly for a given aiming point, but the aiming point itself is changing due to wrong crosshairs tracking and needs correcting through the run. Is that what you are saying?

I'm trying to avoid ambiguities here, so we can come up with something more or less standard that works, until the kinks are patched out.

I tried it in one of the free flight missions yesterday and it is true that mode 2 works very well. There are still some oscillations in altitude, especially when making bigger turns with the rudder in mode 2 you lose some, but i have found a workaround for this too: i switch between AP modes.

First of all i trim out to fly more or less steady (the 111 has aileron trim too in addition to rudder and elevator trim and i think the 88 does too, can't wait to fly it once its gyro is patched to work), so that i can calibrate my gyros and prepare the autopilot.

Then i engage mode 1 AP during the climb out. Mode 1 only controls the ailerons, so you are free to trim nose up or down manually and get your desired climb rate. Nearing my chosen altitude i start to trim for a lower rate of climb to gain airspeed while leveling off. The 111 is a bit tricky here, because speed changes take time and just when you think you are level, speed increases and gives you more climb rate. Nothing that can't be gotten used too though.

Nearing the target i climb a bit higher than my chosen altitude, so that i have a bit of "room" for the slight descend when mode 2 will be engaged. I have found out that it takes a descend of less than 200m on average to go from 250km/h (a usual climb speed) to 300km/h (the speed you need to keep level with mode 2 engaged). So if i want to bomb from 4000m, i will fly on mode 1 until i reach 4200m and then engage mode 2.

Like i said, turning wings level with the rudder is inefficient because of sideslip and you will lose some altitude while lining up the target. Just press your "previous AP mode" key to go to mode 1 when you are satisfied with your course, it will start climbing but it's good to keep the climb rate low to conserve airspeed: the lower the "gap" between your climb speed and 300km/h, the less time and altitude it takes to transiiton to level flight once you engage mode 2.

By repeating this correction process a couple of times during the run-in to the target, you can arrive at the target vicinity (within 10-15km) and be within 200m of your chosen altitude. At that point you switch to mode 2 exclusively and work the bombsight.

Useful notes: Even when zoomed in on the sight, you can press your "look at dashboard" key to get a glimpse of the bombardier's instruments (works in the Blenheim too). So, you can be looking through the sight, keep the button pressed to see your airpeed and altitude gauges, release the button to go back to the crosshairs and correct your bombsight alt and speed as needed.

Also, i think i have found out how to give gunner control back to the AI. I was in the middle of being chased by a 109 when flying a Blenheim on ATAG, i switched to the turret and then i remembered this deactivates the gunners. So, before i switched back to the pilot seat i had an idea, i pressed the keys that give control to the AI pilots (i think ctrl-C is the default). Going back to pilot seat and then back to the turret, i could see that the turret was pointing in a different direction, which means the AI gunner was tracking the 109 and was working.

Pressing ctrl-C again before going to the pilot's seat i brought up the net stats: it said that i was pilot and bombardier on that Blenheim, but not gunner.

So, i think it works like this:
If flying a plane with dual controls (Tiger Moth and Br.20), pressing ctrl-C while in the cockpit gives the controls to the AI co-pilot. If you are in a gunner seat, pressing ctrl-C before switching to another position gives the AI control of your currently occupied gunner position. So, just press it before changing spot to re-enable your AI gunners.

I haven't tested this in the German bombers but it should be easy to: just checking the net stats shows the positions that the player is in control of.


So, that's all i have to share so far.





I also have a couple of things to ask


Engines and power: At least in the He-111H model, it seems that the engines are a bit "weak" and it's not really the engines, but the prop modeling. Even at full pitch and full throttle it's impossible to exceed their limits on level flight. This is evident during the take off run, when RPM spools up so slowly that it's impossible to achieve the rated power values.

Also, does the sim model the propellers as constant speed units or are they variable pitch (like the 109) but with the pitch control on a slider (unlike the 109)?

I will have to experiment more with this. Maybe lowering pitch after the climb out or when at higher altitudes will give me more speed and consecutively a better climb, while also increasing manifold pressure due to the coarsening effect.

The reason this is important? When the memory leak gets fixed we'll be flying in formation. In order for wingmen to catch up and have a bit of power reserve to adjust their position, the leader flies at cruise settings. If the leader flies on full out power, the wingmen have no extra power to use for staying in position.

However, using full power seems necessary to get the required 300km/h for using mode 2 AP and even then some altitude loss occurs over time even when not turning at all (with time compression on, it looked like i was losing 100-200m every 5-10 minutes or so when flying on mode 2 AP, without turning at all).

If we fine-tune our engine handling to be able to keep 300km/h or slightly more with a bit of power reserve, then wingmen will be able to formate properly while the leader will also be able to stay level with mode 2 AP engaged.

Finally, i know the rads need the engine to be working before they can be opened (same as in the Stuka). The oil rad position is visible from the in-cockpit sliders and levers. Is there any instrument that indicates the position of the water rads (for example, like the colored bars on the wings of 109s and 110s)?

Sideslip: How do you account for it in the bombsight?
In the Blenheim, you just read the sideslip from the turn and bank indicator and use that one (adding the bombsight parameter in the direction of the actual slip).

In the He111 with its more accurate and magnified sight however, i have seen that even when the ball is centered there is a bit of drift. This could be simply because of wind.

So, how do i calibrate it? Do i input bombsight sideslip to the direction of the actual one or opposite as seen on instruments? If instruments (ball) are centered and i only see the sideslip from the bombsight, do i add sideslip in the direction the crosshairs is drifting towards in relation to the aim point or the opposite?

For example, if my crosshairs moves left of the target point, do i add sideslip left or right? I guess that after adding the correct sideslip value i will probably have to realign the crosshairs with the target.


I think we're really getting close to completely nailing it down guys, good work. This way we can not only fly, but also spot the bugs and issues. We started off with how to get the Blenheim off the ground safely, then how to bomb in it (it's less accurate but simpler to manage) and now we are almost done with the more complex bombers.

Let's keep it up and by the time the patch comes, we'll probably know enough to start flying any type of bomber in the sim in formations. This will give the sim some more variety in gameplay when flying online. I still can't wait for the Ju88 gyro fix, that one is awesome (although it struggles to get above 3-4km with a full load).

[jimbop]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

So, we need to use TAS in mph, the release distance is calculated correctly for a given aiming point, but the aiming point itself is changing due to wrong crosshairs tracking and needs correcting through the run. Is that what you are saying?

Yes, that's correct. I don't want to get hung up on the KPH-MPH conversion aspect either. It just seems to work but it could be for other reasons.

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Useful notes: Even when zoomed in on the sight, you can press your "look at dashboard" key to get a glimpse of the bombardier's instruments (works in the Blenheim too). So, you can be looking through the sight, keep the button pressed to see your airpeed and altitude gauges, release the button to go back to the crosshairs and correct your bombsight alt and speed as needed.

Fantastic! I didn't realise this and it is a huge help. Regarding the rest, I'm not sure about how to correct for drift. Obviously you can adjust the sight left and right but knowing how much to adjust is beyond me at the moment. Possibly we need weather tools before we can do this? In the Blenheim you get a tooltip readout for the side slip but I don't think you get this is the HE-111.

[Sutts]

Nice research going on here guys, well done and thanks.

I'm not sure about the German aircraft but I'm pretty sure the alignment on the bomb run in British aircraft was always achieved by a conversation between bomb aimer and pilot.....left left, left left, steady....bombs gone etc.

Would be great to see that modelled in the sim....

You align roughly with the target then move to the bomb aimers position.

The AI takes over the controls and continues to fly straight and level on your current heading.

You setup the bomb sight then use simple "left" and "right" keys to give instructions to the AI pilot which you actually hear being spoken. i.e. left, left instruction would be 2 presses of the "left" key.

The AI pilot makes slight course adjustments in response to your commands while remaining straight and level thus allowing you to concentrate on targetting and not having to worry about trimming etc.

How does that sound?

[Flanker35M]

S!

Nice idea Sutts, after all the pilot flew and bombardier just bombed. There could be a small margin of error or deviation in AI flying like IRL but at least you could try do your job as bombardier as well as possible. These planes did not hit the marker or even close like today's guided munitions

[nadasero]

Hi,

I made a number of tutorial videos, showing how to fly german and italian twin engine planes. Until now, they are all in geman but I'm thinking about doing new an better ones (probably also in english) when the next patch brings significant changes and improvements.

http://www.youtube.com/user/nadasero1?feature=mhee

Here are some things, I found out so far.

I also have a couple of things to ask

Engines and power: At least in the He-111H model, it seems that the engines are a bit "weak" and it's not really the engines, but the prop modeling. Even at full pitch and full throttle it's impossible to exceed their limits on level flight. This is evident during the take off run, when RPM spools up so slowly that it's impossible to achieve the rated power values.

Also, does the sim model the propellers as constant speed units or are they variable pitch (like the 109) but with the pitch control on a slider (unlike the 109)?

I think, the He-111 H/P is the most difficult plane to start. Gaining speed takes lots of time and runway. I learned a lot about the landscape behind the runway until I found a save way to take of.

The revs in the simulation are never reaching the levels and values as described in the He111-manuals.

I couldn't find any indicator for the radiators. You can see them in the outside view but this is obviously not an option.

Sideslip: How do you account for it in the bombsight?
In the Blenheim, you just read the sideslip from the turn and bank indicator and use that one (adding the bombsight parameter in the direction of the actual slip).

With simple bombsights, you are always looking to the spot where the bombs are going to hit if you release them. The Lotfe (and the Norden) are looking forward and the fact, that the croshair it not moving shows, that all values are correct and the release will be perfect (if the altitude is correct and device works as it has to).

If the Croshair moves down, the tracking is to fast and you lower the speed-value (Ctrl 1).

If the croshair moves to the right, the plane shifts to the right (wind or flight-parameters can be the reason for this). The bombs will drop right of the flight direction. In this case you correct the lotfe to the right (Ctrl 6). The device is now looking a little bit to the right. You have to repeat this until the croshair stops moving. Now you see where the bombs will hit, which is usually not your intended target but there should be time to change course until the target is in the center again. Because of this, it is important to have an indicator showing at what angle the bombs will drop so you can decide if it is still OK or if you need another run.

In old movies, you can see how the norden is used in the B17. There is for example "The war lover" (1962) with steve McQueen showing him as the pilot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F_lWYEvOPk

At 1:58 the pilot says "it's all yours". Now the plane is controled from the bombsight until the bombs are dropped. The Norden indicates when it's time to drop with a light, but the actual command is done with a button.

[Sutts]

Originally Posted by nadasero

Hi,

I made a number of tutorial videos, showing how to fly german and italian twin engine planes. Until now, they are all in geman but I'm thinking about doing new an better ones (probably also in english) when the next patch brings significant changes and improvements.

http://www.youtube.com/user/nadasero1?feature=mhee

Here are some things, I found out so far.



I think, the He-111 H/P is the most difficult plane to start. Gaining speed takes lots of time and runway. I learned a lot about the landscape behind the runway until I found a save way to take of.

The revs in the simulation are never reaching the levels and values as described in the He111-manuals.

I couldn't find any indicator for the radiators. You can see them in the outside view but this is obviously not an option.



With simple bombsights, you are always looking to the spot where the bombs are going to hit if you release them. The Lotfe (and the Norden) are looking forward and the fact, that the croshair it not moving shows, that all values are correct and the release will be perfect (if the altitude is correct and device works as it has to).

If the Croshair moves down, the tracking is to fast and you lower the speed-value (Ctrl 2).

If the croshair moves to the right, the plane shifts to the right (wind or flight-parameters can be the reason for this). The bombs will drop right of the flight direction. In this case you correct the lotfe to the right (Ctrl 6). The device is now looking a little bit to the right. You have to repeat this until the croshair stops moving. Now you see where the bombs will hit, which is usually not your intended target but there should be time to change course until the target is in the center again. Because of this, it is important to have an indicator showing at what angle the bombs will drop so you can decide if it is still OK or if you need another run.

In old movies, you can see how the norden is used in the B17. There is for example "The war lover" (1962) with steve McQueen showing him as the pilot.

At 1:58 the pilot says "it's all yours". Now the plane is controled from the bombsight until the bombs are dropped. The Norden indicates when it's time to drop with a light, but the actual command is done with a button.

I'm in agreement that the Norden was linked to the autopilot and actually flew the aircraft on the bomb run. However, the Brits had much less complex devices and spoken instructions were required for course adjustments.

I believe I've seen footage of german bomb aimers waving course corrections to their pilot but I can't be sure. Perhaps someone can clarify?

[nadasero]

Originally Posted by Sutts

I'm in agreement that the Norden was linked to the autopilot and actually flew the aircraft on the bomb run. However, the Brits had much less complex devices and spoken instructions were required for course adjustments.

I believe I've seen footage of german bomb aimers waving course corrections to their pilot but I can't be sure. Perhaps someone can clarify?

I'm sure you are right about the Brits and it is the same with the Italians (BR.20).

Here are some additional things from a german manual for the He111 H-16:

There are two L-R switches to control the autopilot. On is on the right end of the stick (we have this without funktion in the game). It should be just like in the Ju88. The other is left to the bomb-sight and control can be given to the "Bombenschütze". It looks just like the on on the panel left of the pilot.

The autopilot works a little bit different to what we have today. Here is a translation of the steps:

1. Press left button below the gyro (Kurskreisel).
2. Main autopilot switch to 1 (stage 1 of the AP)
3. Wait 3 minutes (or 10 if it is cold)
meanwhile
a) Use L-R switch to set the upper course on gyro to actual cours
b) Use right button below gyro to sync lower course on gyro to the upper
4. Main autopilot switch to stage 2 (this is our stage 1)
keep at least 300m safety margin above ground
5. Pull out right button below gyro
Autopilot is now working

....

Changing Course
1. Use L-R switch on stick or at bombsight to change upper course on gyro
2. Use airleron to keep slip indicator centered

....

bomb run
1. Switch to L-R switch at bombsight
2. The switch on the stick is now out of control (this is our AP stage 2)
switch back imideately after the bombrun
3. There is an idicator-light showing that control is at the bombsight
4. there might be a device called "Y-Anlage". Bombruns with this radio direction control device are not using the bomb sight
5. Landing with autopilot "ist VERBOTEN"

So to sum this up:
The two course displays on the gyro are handled vice versa. The upper shows the course we whant to go, the lower shows the course we are going to and is corrected by the right button below (which makes much more sense)

The pilots L-R switch is not on the stick (but the position of all kind of instruments and switches is changed a lot from version to version).

I didn't find any information about a stage 2 controling all three axes. We have this two stages, but with fewer switches and we don't need to wait 3 minutes until the gyro is warmed up and on speed.

In total, we are very close to historical correctness and I think they should fix the more important bugs like the Ju88-gyro first.

For the planes without AP, I would recommend an Autopilot which holds course, speed and altitude as soon as we switch the bombsight. With the L-R button-commands we can change the course in small steps. A "Left" or "Right" call is played to make this as realistic as we can get with one player.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by nadasero

For the planes without AP, I would recommend an Autopilot which holds course, speed and altitude as soon as we switch the bombsight. With the L-R button-commands we can change the course in small steps. A "Left" or "Right" call is played to make this as realistic as we can get with one player.

Exactly. This would simulate the player-controlled bombardier giving course correction instruction to the AI-controlled pilot while we are in the bomb run, then we could switch back to pilot.

Pretty good research here and thanks for the explanation about side slip.

[JG52Uther]

Really must find the time to learn the LW bombers properly, the He111 was just about my favourite aircraft in '46.