CloD should be an MMO

[tintifaxl]

I'm not interested in a WW2 Sim-MMO. And I would not pay a monthly fee.

[LoBiSoMeM]

Originally Posted by klem

Cliffs of Dover is NOT just a Flight Simulator.

Cliffs of Dover is a combat simulator with a high-spec combat flight simulation within it.

What has been done before - and is still being done - is the addition of a reasonable standard of ground war vehicle simulation to enhance the flight combat/simulation aspect which is still the main focus. It is not the same as trying to be a WWII-online all-things-to-all-men and fail on all aspects.

The ground war already exists in a limited AI form. The opportunity to jump into an AAA emplacement and defend your airfield, especially in scenarios that add realism by giving you limited air lives, adds another element to the game and it does not need to be sophisticated. Likewise, driving tanks or troops (or having defendable/defeatable AI doing it) to capture a base or other objective by driving simple vehicles including manning AAA wagons, or dropping paratroops from Dakotas that need to be flown, with a definition of 'capture' within the game, enhances the flight combat aspect of CoD. End games like 'capture' are needed to enable the air war to have meaning. It does not need to extend to a FPS ground army war, estabishment of forces on the ground would be enough. You cannot take ground from the air and the air aspect is enhanced further by having to attack or defend those ground forces.

If you limit 'winning' a mission to just shooting down all the other aircraft or just flattening buildings and walking away you are in the wrong game/mindset. But I wonder how many 'its only a flight sim' guys have ever experienced a broader simulation than that.

Oleg always wanted it to be more than just manned aircraft and if CoD is to survive it needs to compete with the other on-line air war games which is where its longevity will lie. Offline play becomes stale after so many times playing it and people move on to something else once it has been exhausted. Only on-line play is continually unpredictable.

Also, think about the current business model where income is only from the short life release of a new phase of CoD which takes ages to develop. Its a poor business model and more needs to be made from all that input and what do you do when you run out of history to simulate? It may be fine for the guys that are game-hungry and move on after a while to something else, leaving CoD behind, but if MG could develop CoD into a MMO, then support it with a powerful server supporting a few hundred players and charged a low monthly subscription for those that were interested in large scale play, they would have a steady income and I would bet money that many of our players would take it up and players currently on other MMO air combat sims would take it up too because its a better simulation. At the moment there is, I think, only one half-decent air combat sim that is a MMO game. Those that aren't interested can simply continue as they are.

And don't tell me it can't be done due to connection speeds, a few short years ago people were fighting to get 1Mb down/200k up. Now 30, 40, 50Mb down and 2, 5, 10Mb up is widely available. The clever part is designing it so that current generation PCs (which we'll all have in a couple of years time) can handle it.

+1

[TheEditor]

Originally Posted by klem

Cliffs of Dover is NOT just a Flight Simulator.

Cliffs of Dover is a combat simulator with a high-spec combat flight simulation within it.

What has been done before - and is still being done - is the addition of a reasonable standard of ground war vehicle simulation to enhance the flight combat/simulation aspect which is still the main focus. It is not the same as trying to be a WWII-online all-things-to-all-men and fail on all aspects.

The ground war already exists in a limited AI form. The opportunity to jump into an AAA emplacement and defend your airfield, especially in scenarios that add realism by giving you limited air lives, adds another element to the game and it does not need to be sophisticated. Likewise, driving tanks or troops (or having defendable/defeatable AI doing it) to capture a base or other objective by driving simple vehicles including manning AAA wagons, or dropping paratroops from Dakotas that need to be flown, with a definition of 'capture' within the game, enhances the flight combat aspect of CoD. End games like 'capture' are needed to enable the air war to have meaning. It does not need to extend to a FPS ground army war, estabishment of forces on the ground would be enough. You cannot take ground from the air and the air aspect is enhanced further by having to attack or defend those ground forces.

If you limit 'winning' a mission to just shooting down all the other aircraft or just flattening buildings and walking away you are in the wrong game/mindset. But I wonder how many 'its only a flight sim' guys have ever experienced a broader simulation than that.

Oleg always wanted it to be more than just manned aircraft and if CoD is to survive it needs to compete with the other on-line air war games which is where its longevity will lie. Offline play becomes stale after so many times playing it and people move on to something else once it has been exhausted. Only on-line play is continually unpredictable.

Also, think about the current business model where income is only from the short life release of a new phase of CoD which takes ages to develop. Its a poor business model and more needs to be made from all that input and what do you do when you run out of history to simulate? It may be fine for the guys that are game-hungry and move on after a while to something else, leaving CoD behind, but if MG could develop CoD into a MMO, then support it with a powerful server supporting a few hundred players and charged a low monthly subscription for those that were interested in large scale play, they would have a steady income and I would bet money that many of our players would take it up and players currently on other MMO air combat sims would take it up too because its a better simulation. At the moment there is, I think, only one half-decent air combat sim that is a MMO game. Those that aren't interested can simply continue as they are.

And don't tell me it can't be done due to connection speeds, a few short years ago people were fighting to get 1Mb down/200k up. Now 30, 40, 50Mb down and 2, 5, 10Mb up is widely available. The clever part is designing it so that current generation PCs (which we'll all have in a couple of years time) can handle it.

+1
Well said! I had that attitude of "I'm not paying for MMO crap". After game after game of paying $49.99 and getting a broken, buggy, unplayable mess, I started a 21 day free trial of EVE and guess what happen? The game worked! Now when I say broken and buggy, I'm just not talking about CloD, even big name games like BFBC2 are screwed up console ports too!

I'm now willing to pay for an MMO but only if its like EVE's business model. I don't like star treks MMO of pay for premium ships. No player should get the upper hand cuz they throw more money at the game.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by robtek

WoW isn't a game. It's a money printing machine, with millions of addicts, trying to escape RL.

Only it's a cult, like the Mac cult.

[Zoom2136]

Guys,

Albert Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

When you get 'tunnel vision' it is easy to fail to see that commercial success is not achieved through a niche market like a 'flight sim' but through a larger one like a 'war simulator'.

Most people that I tried to get interested in iL2 were put off by the steep learning curve. After getting shot down by veterans (or should I say bi***tch slapped around the sky) for a few weeks, they simply gave up. These were not 'hard core' fans of military aviation, but rather guys that though it looked cool. These are typical customers. Dye hard simmers are a dying breed. When iL2 first came out, its average player’s age was close to 40 years old. This mean that today, more than 10 years later, its closer to 50, as younger player are more into consoles and FPS.

Consequently, if you introduce a land element, like tanks, transport, trains, that are user controllable, than you introduce a FPS element to the game. This would have a larger appeal. If 1c would like to overcome the apparent problem of having to 'drive' for an hour in order to engage the enemy, one could select AI controlled land units on the fly...

If I was running the development, I would introduce a few user controlled tanks to begin with, and see how it is receive... hell… let the modders do it in the beginning and go from there.

I own a company that successfully brought a SaaS to market, so I know firsthand that there are people out there willing to help out a company with limited resources but a great product. They should leverage the power of their fan base. Even if what comes out of it is a pay to play version of Clod, as long as they are upfront about it in the beginning, people will be willing to help.

Finally, if at all possible, they should leverage what 3d models that exist in other 1c games. It is time to think differently and create synergies.

I think that it is time to think outside the box if we want flight sims to survive. Maybe it is time for them to evolve into something different. If not, developers are looking at a smaller and smaller market, thus repeating history all over again, but expecting a bigger commercial success.

My 2c

[SIDWULF]

I was 18 when i started playing IL2 and was in love with the Spitfire. After realizing alot of other people were in love with it too i wasent so much in love with it anymore and now i only fly German...haha

But anyways it seems only young people who already have a facination with WW2 aircraft would pick up on this sim as i have. The other older generation possibly had thier fathers or someone thier father knew actually fly or fight in that era. The story would then be passed along somewhere and spark an intrest.

[klem]

Originally Posted by SIDWULF

I was 18 when i started playing IL2 and was in love with the Spitfire. After realizing alot of other people were in love with it too i wasent so much in love with it anymore and now i only fly German...haha

But anyways it seems only young people who already have a facination with WW2 aircraft would pick up on this sim as i have. The other older generation possibly had thier fathers or someone thier father knew actually fly or fight in that era. The story would then be passed along somewhere and spark an intrest.

In the fifteen years I have been playing on-line air combat sims its always been the same. There have never been many 'kids' playing. We had three join us a couple of years ago and only one stayed. There was one young lad many years ago who became interested mainly because his parents played.

On the other hand, guys reaching towards their 30s and above are the ones that tend to take it up.

I think the reasons are fairly starightforward. There's a steep learning curve which doesn't alway suit the impatience of youth, there aren't the numbers of other young kids to encourage and peer-pressure them into staying with it, the more 'mature' (I use the term loosely on this forum!) people have had time to become interested in the era and aviation in general and may be looking for more realistic simulations rather than FPSs.

Many of the guys playing now were too young to take to it ten years ago when we could have been having the same discussion about niche markets.

I don't think the future for air combat sims is gloomy at all, its never been a big market. I haven't looked lately but I wonder what sort of numbers Aces High is still getting. That's an MMO and might be a good yardstick.

[Hood]

Originally Posted by TheEditor

Then add sim-like vehicles.

A little off subject but anyone have BF3 and is it just the same ol First Person Shooter with better graphics or is it better?

Yes but it is far better.

[TheEditor]

It good to hear that other people here feel the same way I do. I'm 29 now and Flight Sims got me started in PC gaming. My first sim was 1942. I think the pc was a 486 DX . Even that game let you move your carrier fleet then hop into your plane.

I played DCS A-10 and it a great sim but programming targets in the planes computer all day long make me want to be in a spitfire. I can't fly Clod right now cuz my FPS are too bad. So I'm waiting for next-gen video cards to replace my crap 5770 setup. This post turned into a mind dump.

Anybody like using skill books to better improve your pilot if Clod was an MMO?

[klem]

Originally Posted by TheEditor

It good to hear that other people here feel the same way I do. I'm 29 now and Flight Sims got me started in PC gaming. My first sim was 1942. I think the pc was a 486 DX . Even that game let you move your carrier fleet then hop into your plane.

I played DCS A-10 and it a great sim but programming targets in the planes computer all day long make me want to be in a spitfire. I can't fly Clod right now cuz my FPS are too bad. So I'm waiting for next-gen video cards to replace my crap 5770 setup. This post turned into a mind dump.

Anybody like using skill books to better improve your pilot if Clod was an MMO?

I'm amazed that you can't fly CoD with a 5770, perhaps with settings around Medium? The rest of your spec looks just fine. More than fine. Did you try disabling Crossfire?