water cannon

[BadAim]

It's really kind of getting nasty here. It can be quite frustrating to get
something that you're passionate about across to someone who's contrary view is
just as passionate.

I don't really think the name-calling is necessary or fruitful. It's certainly
not conducive to getting a point across, it only escalates a perfectly good
argument into a fight. I'd rather enjoy a nice argument on the internet that
does not break down into a fight, it would be such a rare and precious thing

I think it might be a good idea to define some terms.

Those who advocate the use of firearms for self defense are usually arguing the
case for self defense it's self, not so much for firearms themselves (that most people who actually keep firearms for personal defense are or become enthusiasts and enjoy their guns as a piece of sporting equipment really muddies up the issue) It is a simple fact that when it comes right down to it, at the point where the shit is hitting the fan, nothing get's the job of self defense done like a firearm. nothing.

To the point of a portion of the population of a given country/ province/ state/ what have you taking away from another portion of the population what they consider to be a right; nothing could be more democratic. Democracy is little more than mob rule with government backing (If I've said it before, it bears repeating. You can put all the lipstick on that pig you like, it doesn't change things). This is why the U.S. is a Constitutional Republic, so that the rights of all the people might be protected from the majority while still providing for majority rule. (I will grant that we've not done a bang up job of it all of the time, but the concept still works well)

I understand that passions can run hot on this subject, but lets do try to keep it civil guys.

[BadAim]

It's rather funny that while I was writing the previous thread, I ran out to the store to get some chips, and I clipped a .45 to my belt without a second thought. I suppose that many of you might find it strange. I find it strange that people would jump out of a perfectly good aircraft for fun, but they do.

Firearms are not the cause of the need for firearms. They're simply not. Human nature is the cause of the need for firearms. It is what it is. Firearms don't cause lowlife dirtbags to be lowlife dirtbags, lowlife dirtbags are lowlife dirtbags because it is in their nature to be lowlife dirtbags, it is not the fault of law abiding firearm owners that the aforementioned lowlife dirtbags would misappropriate the one weapon that makes the little old lady next door fully the equal of the biggest and the baddest of the lowlife dirtbags in the land.

I don't argue anyone's right to feel how they feel. I argue their right to inflict their feelings on their fellow citizens.

[ruggbutt]

Originally Posted by BadAim

It is a simple fact that when it comes right down to it, at the point where the shit is hitting the fan, nothing get's the job of self defense done like a firearm.

Once "phasers" or something similar become the norm firearms as we know it will not be taken as seriously as they are currently. There are insane amounts of knife attacks, bludgeonings and other crimes like that in countries where firearms aren't readily available. There are shootings as well. Shootings you say? But aren't firearms illegal? So is drugs, rape, murder, child molestation, etc......

Those of you who don't want or care to own firearms more power to you. In fact, my American bretheren who don't own them I invite you to put a plaque or sign in your yard stating that your home has no firearms in it. Get back to me later about how well that's working out for you. Seriously though, I can see why some people don't like guns especially the Euros. That's fine as well AFAIC. Your government doesn't trust you and you've allowed that for so long that you've made your bed. Now you gotta lie in it. But as typical socialists you want everyone else to not be able to have the means to protect themselves. That's the difference between an American constitutionalist and a socialist (regardless of where they're from). As long as you don't bother me with your gun I'm ok with you having it. I don't care if you wanna have sex with another man. I don't care if you wanna do drugs and stay stoned all day. As long as you're not driving my kid's school bus or are on the road endangering others more power to you.

That's what a lot of you Euros don't "get". Gun owners (and Americans in general) have a long history with firearms. To the core we embrace what created this country. Our attitude was that a bunch of farmers could stand up to the greatest military power on earth and kick them off of our land. Our continent. We did that and we are taught that in school as young children. We have many more non-gun owners in this country that are ambivalent about gun ownership than there are socialist/left wingers that want to ban all firearms. I live in Phoenix, where you can carry concealed or open anywhere with no permit. We've been able to carry open since before I was born (and I'm class of '81 in high school...). In the 90's when I was competing professionally I had hair to my waist and every time I went into my bank I was carrying openly. No one ever called the police. No one was scared. And that's what the rest of the world doesn't "get". There are infinitely more people who are responsible with their ownership of firearms than there are people who are responsible with their driver's licenses. When was the last time you saw a news report where someone was drunk and went shooting? How about drunk and driving?

Regardless of the definition that a firearm "is for killing" (it's not, I have more experience with them than most of Europe does. And that's me alone) it's not. I've shot much more paper and steel targets than I have human beings. When the majority of people in this country buy a gun, it's for self defense. Period. There are millions of examples in this country every year where the mere presence of a firearm has stopped a crime from happening. I've personally held criminals at gunpoint for the police. Had I not been there, those people would have gone on to continue their crime spree. A shot wasn't fired in those instances. I fired a shot that saved my life when I was a teenager. The crime he was going to commit (murder) was stopped as well. There are many stories like mine and having "been there, done that, got the t-shirt and the hat" no one can convince me that firearms ownership is bad. Frankly, I'm more scared of someone with a knife than a gun, especially when they're within 3 meters of me. The "rule" of 3 regarding gun altercations (3 rounds, 3 meters, 3 seconds) applies to knife wielding assailants. The bad guy can close the distance of 3 meters in well less than 3 seconds. I'm not sure if anyone has ever seen in person the results of a knife fight, but it's utterly gruesome. I've witnessed someone shoot themselves and there's absolutely no comparison. A competent individual with a sharp blade can kill and do more damage in a shorter time frame than someone can with a gun.

Even if you could remove all guns from the face of the earth with a swipe of your hand, people will default back to edged implements. Blunt objects. Gasoline and matches. Even an amateur can kill more people with a car in one fell swoop than someone with a full auto AK-47. I don't like that there's violence in the world. I don't like that someone could come into my home looking for money and wishing to do harm to me and my loved ones. I wish we could all walk thru fields of daisies and love our neighbors, all of them. I also wish I was a billionaire. But that's not the reality, is it? The reality is that should a bad man try to harm me, someone I love or even someone I don't know that I'm in the presence of I will drop them like a rabid dog. No questions asked. The law allows me to. Because we cannot trust in the police to protect us. We cannot trust in our government to protect us. They don't even have the responsibility to protect us. Don't believe me? Try suing the cops for not looking out for your best interests. Nope, I'll handle the situation myself. I was born in the Wild West: Phoenix, Arizona. Where we were taught as children (in school) desert survival. How to spot the poisonous snake. How to survive the inhospitable outlying areas where we live. And we also have the tools to provide safety for ourselves. Not all make the choice and that's fine. But it's a choice that's available to all.

[ATAG_Doc]

"Okay, well, check this out. First of all, you're throwing too many big words at me. Okay, now because I don't understand them, I'm gonna take them as disrespect." (40 year old virgin movie) lol

[Wolf_Rider]

we've seen the epitome of why religious and political discussion is not allowed (and rightly so)... and, I wonder how the locals are getting on in Jersey (UK) this morning. (this may seem to be a bit cold but it reinforces the facts mentioned already - guns don't kill people, people kill people.)



oh, and the right to bear arms? ... those poor bears

just to throw a bit of humour in

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

you must have been asleep at school when they explained the concept of democracy: you said "I don't want guns completely legalised in my country just because someone wants to collect them. Or gets off on shooting stuff.." I don't want the Xfactor or Jordan on TV, but alas, I have to take it, because there's a part of this democratic country that likes that s**t. You don't even know what it is that you don't want.

whereas inviting me to shut up is very democratic uh? How old are you, Winny? 12?

Unfortunately for you guns are common, as you said you've been at gunpoint twice (very bad luck btw, even in Manchester), and again, I have nothing against your choice of not having guns, chapeau to you and your sense of security based on this farse of society. .

Democracy is about majority. I don't know of any real major opposition to the current UK gun laws. It's a minority that are affected by it.

Anyway this isn't an argument about democracy, it's about guns. (you keep wandering off..) TV, Jordan..? again you're in a minority, both are hugely popular (I don't understand why either).

Like I said, I've come to a decision, I'm happy with the current laws.

I'm 37 by the way.. I told you to shut up because you were being rude..Grow up. I don't agree with you. So what?

Start a movement.. see how much support you get..

[ElAurens]

Originally Posted by arthursmedley

Sweden is turning into a cesspool!?

I made a bad assumption that Ven was from the UK as he is siding with them.

Oh well, this thread has run it's course anyway.

[ElAurens]

Originally Posted by Vengeanze

Just saying that there are other alternatives than arming every citizen.


Implying that conditions changes over time.
Here's a pic to illustrate:



U taught me two things with that sentence: I have learnt what a cesspool is and that you have no clue about the state of my country.

Apologies, I thought you were from the UK, didn't look at the top to see where you are from. And Brits, I do like your country, I've been there long ago (1972) and totally fell for the place, but I probably would not recognise it now.

I still wonder why you feel freedom as granted in our Constitution is out of date though? Times may change but basic human rights do not.

That's why we tossed Mad King George and his rented German thugs out in the first place.

We all have made our choices, and we all have the right to keep them as we see fit. Europeans are used to living in societies where power is exercized from the top down, because of centuries of conditioning being ruled by kings.

We rejected that right from the start and are used to power deriving from the people, and having founding fathers that understood that protecting the people from their government is the single most important aspect of civil life.

But enough of this banter, time for something completely different.

[Wolf_Rider]

When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty.


-Thomas Jefferson

[AndyJWest]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty.


-Thomas Jefferson

...and when any debate about crime, anywhere on the internet, ends up regurgitating the endless obsession of US politics with guns, there is boredom. There is more to life than shooting people. Get over it...