Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[TheGrunch]

Originally Posted by csThor

Well, I couldn't code if my life depended on it. But unfortunately I have to agree with you WRT a dynamic campaign from 1C:MG.

I am asking a friend about it. Really it depends on how complete the logfile is, much like IL-2. If it's as good as IL-2's logfile, I think he might consider messing with it. He's a coder for a software company and has an interest in WW2 flight-sims so we'll see.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by csThor

It's most likely II./JG 26 which received the DB 601N-powered aircraft but I am still hesitant to see this type as more than a "candy bar" for the most successful pilots (still too much of a guess rather than knowledge).

Agreed. For the most part of the big daylight battles, the 109s with 601N weren't that numerous to justify the coding required. A 110C-x/N on the other hand is a must IMHO, with roughly half the ZGs were flying, and giving the 110 flying some favour. And it's probably II/JG 26 as you say, though I'd wager that it wasn't handed out to the most successfull pilots of seperate JGs initially. The 19 July memo specifically mentions a Gruppe, plus otherwise logistics and maintaince would be nightmarish, with a mix of 601A and 601N powered Emils...

If I had to choose the line-up, I'd do this:

Bf 109E-1 of 1939, as E-3, but with four MG 17s
[b]Bf 109E-3 (what we have now) of 1939, manual prop pitch, probably no armor(?), 601A. This is pretty much as the 109E started the war in September. A good stand in for May 1940 France battles as well.

Bf 109E-4, 1940. Auto prop pitch, pilot/fuel tank armor in the fuselage. Optionally head/windscreen armor (the latter seems to have been randomly appearing on planes), MG FF/Ms (Mine shells ). Standard DB 601A. 'Boxy' canopy instead of the rounded one. This would represent the detail improvements made in the meantime of September 1939 - May-August 1940, just like the CSP/armor thing on BoB Spitties/Hurris. Plus most E-3 were converted to E-4 by August anyway (the designation was changed because of the MG - FF/M cannon, slightly modified to fire high capacity HE shells).

Bf 109E-7/N. As E-4, but with 601N, and the E-7 can also carry drop tank. Not only it could represent E-7s that started to arrive in August 1940 and become the major production model, it could step-in as the early few E-3/N or E-4/N 'candy bars', as well as older E-1/E-3/E-4 retrofitted with droptanks, and could be well used for later adds ons and scenarios, such as Afrika or Barbarossa, by which time the remaining Emils were typically E-7/Ns beside 109Fs.. I'd skip the basic E-7 entirely, it only differes from the E-4 in the droptank option, and the slightly more powerful (ca +50 HP..) DB 601Aa... needless waste of development time IMHO.

[TheGrunch]

I'd agree with that line-up wholeheartedly.

Going through ORBs now, and honestly sometimes it is hard to say. Often you can read about a squadron receiving a certain number of 'improved Hurricane aircraft from 5MU' and really there is little more information than that.

EDIT: Any comment on the phrase Me. Jaguars? Referring to aircraft dive-bombing? Maybe 110s?

[csThor]

Jaguar was the propaganda nickname for bomb-carrying Bf 110s.

@ Kurfürst

Right now we don't have more than incomplete hints about the presence of DB 601N-powered Emils. I certainly agree that equipping a full Gruppe would be more logic WRT supply issues but when looking at the numbers of Bf 109s involved in the BoB that number is still quite insignificant. Like I said modelling the Bf 109 E-7/N (or E-4/N for that matter) could have gameplay value if the campaign engine was more sophisticated.

On the other hand you're right about the Bf 110s since they had absolute priority for getting the DB 601Ns at first.

[TheGrunch]

A total of 561 of all E-4 versions were built, [12] including 250 E-4, 20 E-4/N, 211 E-4/B and 15 E-4/BN. [11]


[11] RLM Lieferplan Nr. 18 Ausgabe 3, 01.11.1940 (Deliveries up to 31.10.1940)
[12] Ritger 2006, p. 171.

Wikipedia says this...not the most reliable source I know.

[winny]

As I said earlier in the thread.. All operational Hurricane, Spitfire and Defiant Squadrons in the RAF had been converted to 100 Octane by May 1940

Taken from Spitfireperformance.com

The use of 100 octane fuel was approved for Spitfire Squadrons by 24 September 1938. Fighter Command noted on 6 December 1938 that Duxford, Debden, Northholt and Digby had received 100 octane fuel. As of December 1938 Nos. 19 and 66 were based at Duxford and were the only RAF units then equipped with Spitfires.

The Air Ministry noted in a memo dated 12 December 1939 that "100 octane fuel is approved for use in Hurricane, Spitfire and Defiant aircraft, and state that issue will be made as soon as the fuel is available in bulk at the distribution depots serving the Fighter Stations concerned." Gavin Bailey concluded that "The actual authorisation to change over to 100-octane came at the end of February 1940 and was made on the basis of the existing reserve and the estimated continuing rate of importation in the rest of the year." As of 31 March 1940 220,000 tons of 100 octane fuel was held in stock.
The Co-ordination of Oil Policy Committee noted in the conclusions of their 18 May 1940 meeting with regard to the "Supply of 100 Octane fuel to Blenheim and Fighter Squadrons" that Spitfire and Hurricane units "had now been stocked with the necessary 100 octane fuel". The Committee recorded that actual consumption of 100 octane for the 2nd Quarter 1940 was 18,100 tons.

Wood and Dempster wrote in their book "The Narrow Margin":

As it turned out, aviation spirit was to prove no worry for the R.A.F. By July 11th, 1940, the day after the Battle of Britain opened, stocks of 100 octane petrol used in the Merlin engine stood at 343,000 tons. On October 10th, twenty-one days before the battle closed, and after 22,000 tons had been issued, stocks had risen to 424,000 tons. With other grades of aviation spirit total stock available on October 10th, 1940, was 666,000 tons. Oil reserves were 34,000 tons.

Wood & Dempster’s "The narrow margin" shows figures for stocks of 100 octane are in agreement with those of the War Cabinet, however, their figure of 22,000 tons issued falls short of the Air Ministry’s figures as shown below.

By 7 August 1940 "authority has been obtained for the use of 100 octane fuel in all operational aircraft and that instructions to that effect are being issued to Commands",

i.e. all operational aircraft in Bomber, Coastal, Training and Fighter Commands.
On October 29, just before the end of the Battle of Britain, 423,400 tons of 100 octane fuel was in stock in the UK. The War Cabinet recorded that 100 octane stocks stood at 202,000 tons on 31 December 1939 and that 100 octane stocks had risen to 499,000 tons one year later on 31 December 1940. The Air Ministry recorded that 58,000 tons of 100 octane were issued during the Battle of Britain. The War Cabinet recorded that 100 octane consumption within the UK for the whole of 1940 amounted to 130,000 tons, an average of 2,500 tons per week. Consumption of 100 octane during the Battle of Britain averaged 10,000 tons per month for the months of July and August rising to 14,000 tons in September followed by 17,000 tons during October. Total consumption of 100 octane fuel during the Battle of Britain therefore was on the order of 50,000 tons.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by TheGrunch

Wikipedia says this...not the most reliable source I know.

Yeah I edited that part there there..

Though keep in mind that the delivery list is for newly produced (Neubau) aircraft, but apparantly, most 601N Emils were retrofits of existing airframes. Just check the 1st January 1941 strenght breakdown on my site, linked above - 54 E-4s (compare to the 20+15 factory produced..), 16 E-1/N (none produced by factories as per the Delivery Plans..) etc.

The story is that 110s had absolute priority at first, so they put up with producing a Gruppe worth of E-4/Ns. I can see the reasoning... the upped 110s would be just as fast as Spits, and much faster than Hurris.. as opposed to upped 109s being... more faster than the Hurricanes.. wait.. they are already faster than Hurris!

That changed in around October, 109s got priority, but by then the E-7 was the new (and IIRC - sole production type, with the E-1/E-3 already stopped and the E-4 stopping, older ones being upgraded to E-7 standard. So most 109E-x/N types were E-7/N, plus a number of older types that were retrofitted.

Radinger's 109A-E book's Delivery/Lieferplan based list of E-7 production seem to suggest that all (452 E-7 production total of the top of my head) had 601N instead of, but I have some doubts about that, probably some confusion when converting the original Lieferplan into book-form. I recall Olivier (butch2k) also said that all E-7s got the DB 601Aa instead of the 'vanila' 601A-1, besides the ones that got 601N.

That being said, IMO it is undoubtedly true and I agree that the 601N power Emils did not play a significant role the summer - quite simply just a handful were around. They were the highest performance fighters around, with speed I reckon in the order of 590-595 km/h. But the /N types did not become significant until towards the end of the year, and of course, the first half of 1941.

Hence why I believe an E-7/N would be a better choice, with an eye on forthcoming 1941 scenarios (Circuses and Rhubarbs and Africa, Greece, Barbarossa etc.). The E-7/N is simply a must for a late Emil that could be re-used in dozens of scenarios. Plus there would be no whining that Blue doesn't get da boosta variant.

Modelling an 50-odd production run like the E-4/N would be a waste of time.. for the same reason, I am a bit puzzled about the Spitifire Mark II's ... pretty much the same thing as the Mark I, in every respect. Same speed, same climb, same guns.. Oh, sorry, different engine starter!!! as opposed to a Hurricane Mark II, that was significantly better than the Hurri Mk I..

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by TheGrunch

EDIT: Any comment on the phrase Me. Jaguars? Referring to aircraft dive-bombing? Maybe 110s?

A fictional Jabo variant of the 110, that made into the English press at the start of the war. From English Flight magazine illustration from 1939, the Germans cunningly made it look like exactly as the 110.

I suppose it was based on rumors of the Me 210 development (which indeed started out as a 110 with a bomb bay).

[TheGrunch]

Originally Posted by winny

The Co-ordination of Oil Policy Committee noted in the conclusions of their 18 May 1940 meeting with regard to the "Supply of 100 Octane fuel to Blenheim and Fighter Squadrons" that Spitfire and Hurricane units "had now been stocked with the necessary 100 octane fuel"[/B]. The Committee recorded that actual consumption of 100 octane for the 2nd Quarter 1940 was 18,100 tons.

As Kurfurst noted in the thread on ww2aircraft.net, that particular "Spitfire and Hurricane units" is an unnecessary alteration made by Mike Williams and it actually says "the Units concerned".
However I think the first quote you posted gets us *most of the way* toward saying that 100 octane was available at all operational units, i.e. "issue will be made as soon as the fuel is available in bulk at the distribution depots serving the Fighter Stations concerned".

[csThor]

The whole story of Emil versions is a total mess since aircraft were retrofitted and changed versions all the time. It was not unusual to have an aircraft delivered as E-1 being refitted as E-4 being refitted as E-7 being refitted as E-7/N. And of course it would only appear as E-1 in official production lists ...