Friday 2010-09-24 Dev. update and Discussion

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by mazex

I was thinking of that while doing the math example but I was a bit unsure about the actual "speed limit" of a normal "non sub calibre" bullet, ie if the bullet has a built in problem with aerodynamic compression etc that makes 1000-1100 m/s extremely hard and that the bullet lose speed very fast after leaving the muzzle... But it sure is supersonic so I guess you are right!

The MKVIIIZ round (Used in the vicker MG and I assume the Colt-Brownings) was 2550fps (~777m/s). Although I haven't seen velocities for the tracer, incendiary and AP round, I assume (bad mistake I know) they would try to match the balistics of the Ball Ammo for sighting purposes.

Cheers

[Foo'bar]

Originally Posted by Schallmoser

foobar, I'm doing it again - direct link to your site. Entschuldigung

hey, kein Ding

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

The MKVIIIZ round (Used in the vicker MG and I assume the Colt-Brownings) was 2550fps (~777m/s). Although I haven't seen velocities for the tracer, incendiary and AP round, I assume (bad mistake I know) they would try to match the balistics of the Ball Ammo for sighting purposes.

Cheers

Not really from what I understand. The ball ammo and the tracer rounds had different velocities and, therefore, a different amount of "bullet drop".

Being a firearms enthusiast, I can tell you it wouldn't matter much up close. But at any range, it would certainly matter. The velocity of the tracer probably also fell off faster.

I have read several times that some units replaced their tracer rounds with ball or AP and actually got better results.

I know also that ball and AP ammo have slightly different accuracy. Fire each at the same point from a fixed rest and you will most likely get two different points of impact (good luck finding a range that allows AP though lol).

For the games, I have always relied on tracers for gauging lead shots shots...until IL-2. For some reason, and probably having more to do with me than IL-2, it doesn't work for me in IL-2. I have to try an educated guess on lead and look for the bullet impacts, then make adjustments.

splitter

[Splitter]

Didn't feel like editing the previous post....

Rate of fire and length of time firing matters too, even in a .50 cal.

A "cold bore" shot from an average barrel is going to have a different point of impact than a shot from a fouled, hot barrel. As the barrel heats up in an automatic weapon, the point of impact will continue to change.

Fire an automatic weapon in a long burst and you increase the chance of of a jam due to heat issues, mostly in the chamber. Barrels and chambers get REALLY hot, especially with higher velocity rounds.

I'm not sure these things can be modeled in a sim though. I can't remember having an machine gun jam without battle damage in IL-2 (maybe I am just lucky). I do know that in the old days of Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe, firing a .50 cal in a turn pulling G's was rolling the dice as far as a jam went. My understanding was that earlier P-51 models had such problems due to the alignment of the MG's.

Splitter

[Buglord]

Thanks oleg, very close is what ive been waiting to hear for ages.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Didn't feel like editing the previous post....

Rate of fire and length of time firing matters too, even in a .50 cal.

A "cold bore" shot from an average barrel is going to have a different point of impact than a shot from a fouled, hot barrel. As the barrel heats up in an automatic weapon, the point of impact will continue to change.

Splitter

Hi,

As you said there are large range of factors to take into concideration.

I've been trying to find some data for the exotic .303 rounds but it's a bit hard. You find info about the standard ball ammo. The MkVII (standard infantry round in WWII) and MKVIII (boat tailed round for vickers MG) is about 2440fps and the MkVIIZ comes in at 2550fps but I haven't found anything about the various forms of tracer, incendiary and AP rounds.

Tracers would be interesting as they would change mass as they burnt off their filling.

Cheers!

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Hi,

As you said there are large range of factors to take into concideration.

I've been trying to find some data for the exotic .303 rounds but it's a bit hard. You find info about the standard ball ammo. The MkVII (standard infantry round in WWII) and MKVIII (boat tailed round for vickers MG) is about 2440fps and the MkVIIZ comes in at 2550fps but I haven't found anything about the various forms of tracer, incendiary and AP rounds.

Tracers would be interesting as they would change mass as they burnt off their filling.

Cheers!

I'll send some emails to some of my "ballistics" friends, but no promises as what you seek is outside of their normal realm of expertise (small arms). Ballistics is like statistics in my mind....what seems to make sense is not always fact. Their are strange factors that come into play and some exponential changes from round to round that most of us would not expect. (long range shooters have a "geekiness" all their own lol)."

I would think that the heat form the tracer would dissipate energy....but then again the round would be getting lighter. Does it have the same powder chard to begin with? The same grain weight? I have no idea.

Splitter

[Hunden]

Oleg thanx for taking time and giving a written update as well as the friday pics. I hope all goes well at home and at work.

[Defender]

Pictures look great, very VERY excited about this title and appreciate in advance the level of detail you've put into it and plan on implementing into it in the future.

As far as the "lasers" go...I think we owe Oleg a little respect in this department. These are in no way FINAL so given the other painstaking details being modeled I think it's pretty safe to say he'll get the tracers as right looking as possible come release.

[FG28_Kodiak]

Originally Posted by Blakduk

... how did a Ju88 crew bail?

From a english translated Manual:
9. Jumping with the parachute.
Parachute jump is only performed on the order of the pilot of the aeroplane.
There are two alternative exit routes:
1) Through the ventral hatch,
2) Through the ejected canopy.
If possible jump is done through the ventral hatch, because when exiting from the ejected canopy it
possible that the jumper be injured by the tail assembly.
T o p o i n t 1 . J e t t i s o n i n g t h e C - g u n n e r p o s i t i o n .
Trailing antenna in pulled in or cut.
First the latch on the attachment rope is detached from the static ventral gondola.
Safety on the red lever on the bottom of the gondola is removed and lever is turned.
Lower part of C-gunner position falls off.
T o p o i n t 2 . J e t t i s o n i n g o f t h e c a n o p y .
First the armour plates are removed.
All crew members must be fastened with seat belts.
Safety on a hand lever high behind the frame 6 is removed by the wireless operator or the observer,
and he also pushes around with open grip, without holding the lever in hand. The rear part of the
canopy is detached and the air stream wrenches it clear from the aeroplane.

You can find the complete Manual here:
http://www.ju88.equitatura.de/downloads.htm