Why I dislike IL-2 games..

[olife]

the real dogfights between "west"propeller fighters and "east"propeller fighters:
june 1950-the f82g twin mustang " bucket o' bolt" destroy a north korean yak7u and 3 others f82 pilots destroy 3 north korean fighter(probably a yaks)

june 29th 1950-2 f-51mustang destroy 3 north korean il10

june 30th 1950-1 f51 mustang destroy 1 la7

april 21st 1951-4 north korean yak9 attack 2 f4u-4 corsair of vma 312:3 yak were destroy by us pilots and the last was damaged

in fact ,i think the qualities of the pilots are as primordial as the fly qualities of the planes...even if the north korean rookies pilots must be courageous and fly in the good planes ,they had not one chance to survive against the exelent us pilots(veterans of ww2)...who had a good planes too

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by olife

the real dogfights between "west"propeller fighters and "east"propeller fighters:
june 1950-the f82g twin mustang " bucket o' bolt" destroy a north korean yak7u and 3 others f82 pilots destroy 3 north korean fighter(probably a yaks)

june 29th 1950-2 f-51mustang destroy 3 north korean il10

june 30th 1950-1 f51 mustang destroy 1 la7

april 21st 1951-4 north korean yak9 attack 2 f4u-4 corsair of vma 312:3 yak were destroy by us pilots and the last was damaged

in fact ,i think the qualities of the pilots are as primordial as the fly qualities of the planes...even if the north korean rookies pilots must be courageous and fly in the good planes ,they had not one chance to survive against the exelent us pilots(veterans of ww2)...who had a good planes too

No doubt pilot knowledge is important, but just going on statistics of the planes, a P-51 against a Yak-3 or others wouldn't stand a chance at low altitudes; and we're talking the VK-105PF-2 Klimov engine. Not the VK-107 or 108 which had terrible problems; and even the engines powering the Yaks in Korea had terrible engines as well.

Anyway, that's weird they had Yak-7s and La-7s in Korea. Most were just basic Yak-9s and La-9s that were just another varient. (And it was always, even through WW2, known that Yak-9s had engine problems like none other.) But more to the point, I thought the only Yak-7s were the UTI variants that were just trainers, not actual Yak-7s like from WW2.

Plus, just to add something more to this. The Yak's and La's used in Korea, actually had significant armor upgrades which slowed them down, they added radios, and other things that Western Front planes in WW2 had. So they were nothing like the Yaks and Las of WW2... just thought I'd also point that out to anyone.

Thanks for the info though Olife, do you mind linking us to the site you got that info from. I'd like to look into that.

[olife]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

No doubt pilot knowledge is important, but just going on statistics of the planes, a P-51 against a Yak-3 or others wouldn't stand a chance at low altitudes; and we're talking the VK-105PF-2 Klimov engine. Not the VK-107 or 108 which had terrible problems; and even the engines powering the Yaks in Korea had terrible engines as well.

Anyway, that's weird they had Yak-7s and La-7s in Korea. Most were just basic Yak-9s and La-9s that were just another varient. (And it was always, even through WW2, known that Yak-9s had engine problems like none other.) But more to the point, I thought the only Yak-7s were the UTI variants that were just trainers, not actual Yak-7s like from WW2.

Plus, just to add something more to this. The Yak's and La's used in Korea, actually had significant armor upgrades which slowed them down, they added radios, and other things that Western Front planes in WW2 had. So they were nothing like the Yaks and Las of WW2... just thought I'd also point that out to anyone.

Thanks for the info though Olife, do you mind linking us to the site you got that info from. I'd like to look into that.

hello bud

totaly agree with u,soviet ace,and yes the yak7 shoot down by the first f82 was a trainer.i think if the pilots of the yaks and las in korea were all soviet veterans ,the work for the us pilots was not easy(the aces of aces of korea war is the russian colonel yevgeni pepelyaev 23 kills).it is right too that the unofficial results of many us jet pilots is korea can be more important that the official results because they go in the forbidden area (jump the yalu river)
to fight and the air kills of the "forbidden area" were not confirm.
to speak again about the russians ww2 planes,the best germans aces said that the la and yak series can outturn the fw190s and me109s.the soviets know how to built a good planes.

source about korea war dogfights:a book called KOREAN WAR ACES by osprey publishing (it is a serie of good books and i have the collecting of the french version:60 books of 60 pages,the english version is better with more pages and more color profiles)
u must find it on internet i think

good hunting bud

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by olife

hello bud

totaly agree with u,soviet ace,and yes the yak7 shoot down by the first f82 was a trainer.i think if the pilots of the yaks and las in korea were all soviet veterans ,the work for the us pilots was not easy(the aces of aces of korea war is the russian colonel yevgeni pepelyaev 23 kills).it is right too that the unofficial results of many us jet pilots is korea can be more important that the official results because they go in the forbidden area (jump the yalu river)
to fight and the air kills of the "forbidden area" were not confirm.
to speak again about the russians ww2 planes,the best germans aces said that the la and yak series can outturn the fw190s and me109s.the soviets know how to built a good planes.

source about korea war dogfights:a book called KOREAN WAR ACES by osprey publishing (it is a serie of good books and i have the collecting of the french version:60 books of 60 pages,the english version is better with more pages and more color profiles)
u must find it on internet i think

good hunting bud

Yeah, I know the site. The link in my sig, goes to Osprey. They've got some great books on planes, and just different wars in general. I actually have the Korean War book you're talking about and the MiG-15 and F-86 one as well. I didn't see that in the Korean War Aces though, so I'll have to take a look at it more thoroughly.

[Robotic Pope]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

I'm pretty sure, that if you've ever seen a P-51 flying today, it's powered by an Allison... similar (if not the same) to the Allison that powers the Yak-3s of today.

Well I know the Allison engine needs an air intake above the engine as you can see on this Yak3 and P-51A. I have never seen a P-51D with this intake. Find me a photo of this, only then will I believe it. I can't find any info on the internet of a P-51D ever being "downgraded" in this way either. I'll add that all the P-51D's that I have heard have clearly sounded like Merlins.

[Crosshair14]

Here's some P-51 and other plane vids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCm5z2RpI8

This one is epic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZmnVqkKapI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lW2n...eature=related

[David603]

Originally Posted by Robotic Pope

Well I know the Allison engine needs an air intake above the engine as you can see on this Yak3 and P-51A. I have never seen a P-51D with this intake. Find me a photo of this, only then will I believe it. I can't find any info on the internet of a P-51D ever being "downgraded" in this way either. I'll add that all the P-51D's that I have heard have clearly sounded like Merlins.

This is one of the Spitfire replicas powered by an Allison V-1710, and as you can see, there is no air intake above the engine.

I'll try to find a picture of an Allison engined P51D for you.

[Soviet Ace]

I believe the P-51D at Wanaka in New Zealand, is Allison powered.

[olife]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

Yeah, I know the site. The link in my sig, goes to Osprey. They've got some great books on planes, and just different wars in general. I actually have the Korean War book you're talking about and the MiG-15 and F-86 one as well. I didn't see that in the Korean War Aces though, so I'll have to take a look at it more thoroughly.

hehe !!lol and great!!
i know the french version is different of english version,but try to look the page 7,9 and 20 but not sure it is the same pages in your book!!
the color profiles of those books are very very good!!!

good hunting bud ace

[Robotic Pope]

Well there you go. I learned something new lol.

Did a bit of searching and reading. Can't find any mention on why the allison engine suddenly didn't need to have then airscoop on top rather than underneith the engine. It seems to me to be part of the modification that gave the allison a two stage supercharger though. I now know that most the Twin Mustangs went back to using Allisons (even though they were weaker) for political reasons. I expect these fake engined Mustangs are from old F-82's and are all in the US then and why Ive never come across one.

One thing I can't understand. I still count 6 exausts in the photos?

Production F-82Es were slow in arriving. The problem was the updated Allison V-1710 engine. The Allison was selected because Packard had to pay Rolls-Royce a $6,000 USD royalty for every V-1650 the company produced. During the war, Rolls Royce had been lenient about license fees, but after the end of the conflict Britain's economy was in the dumps and the royalty fee skyrocketed. There was also the fact that General Motors, which owned Allison, had a 40% share in NAA. GM had not been happy with the Mustang's switch to Merlin power during the war, but demand for Allisons by other aircraft such as the P-38 Lightning was strong and GM had not been in a position to protest. With the war over, aircraft production took a dive and GM wanted to sell more Allisons. There were few other reasons to use the Allison engine, since even the two-stage supercharged Allison V-1710 was inferior in power-to-weight ratio to the Merlin.

The souped-up Allison engine was also temperamental and unreliable, and Allison couldn't deliver product in quantity. NAA had completed the 100 F-82E airframes by April 1948, but wasn't able to deliver them all for another year due to engine shortages. In service, the Allison-powered F-82Es were marginally slower than the Merlin-powered F-82Bs and the reliability problems persisted. The V-1710 became known as the "Allison time bomb" due to engine failures. Spark plug fouling from backfiring was particularly acute, and spark plugs were often swapped after a single flight.

NAA engineers modified some Allison engines with Merlin components and fixed most of the problems, but Allison took a "not invented here" attitude and insisted on applying their own fixes, which never quite worked. Given the small production run of the Twin Mustang, even the steep license fee Rolls Royce was demanding for the Merlin was a bargain compared to all the troubles the USAF had with the Allisons.

The F-82Es were externally indistinguishable from the F-82As except for minor details. One of the giveaways was the engine exhaust stacks. On the Merlin-powered aircraft, there were six exhaust stacks on each side. On the Allison-powered aircraft, there were duplicate exhaust stacks for each cylinder, for a total of 12 exhaust stacks on each side.