microlag? might I have it?

[cyclone70]

OK, I know a bad workman blames his tools, but...
last night I was having trouble getting hits on the target more than usual. There was no visible lag to speak of, as in 'planes jumping across the sky' stuff, but I was wondering if there could be a continual mini lag throughout the whole game just enough to miss the target? I've only got a 512 connection. The guy hosting most of the night was in Eastern USA.

So to clarify, do you guys know if there can be a kind of invisible lag present if the game is running perfectly smoothly?
One time in particular, I was right on someones six, his plane filling my screen but it was like the bullets were polystyrene!

[TRC Subaru]

I also believe there may be a slight "lag issue" which just may be an inherent condition with online gaming…or this might just be the true difficulty of the game and you are require to hit a precise cannon shot in a specific spot on the enemies plane or you don’t get the “kill”…but it does seem the hit ratio of the “long shots” vary wildly from game to game...

I posted this on the devs forum:

Hi Anton,

I noticed something seems to be very unusual as to the ability to get a “kill” from one online game to the next. I originally assumed it was just the difficulty of the game and my skill level. I have been flying in BoP on XBOX just about every night for a few hours since the game came out here in California.

I have now noticed that when I host a large or full room (16 people) my planes ability to actually hit its target is reduced, but when I am in somebody else’s room my ability to hit my target and produce a “Kill” goes up tremendously.

It took me a while to understand this and I have not fully tested it out but recently I was hosting full rooms and could barely get a couple of kills, I would follow a plane and pump what seemed like thousands of bullets into it and it would still not register a Kill. I then purposely had a friend start a room and as soon as it started, from almost a kilometer away I pulled the trigger on a plane and the moment the first few bullets hit the plane it burst into flames, I was amazed. I then went on to get 3 more kills easily and in a very short time. It was as if my accuracy and firepower went up 10 times.

I am a mechanical engineer so I am not qualified to evaluate what may be going on with the program, but my theory is there is a slight “Lag” issue. What I see on the screen and where my bullets go are not fully in sync with what the program is reading so bullets that look like they are going into the plane are really slightly missing when in this “Lag” state…not a lot, but just being a fraction of a second off of a bullets’ projected path will easily throw it way off its target and will not register in the “Kill Box” area that the program is calculating.

This may also happen in just a “laggy” room. I noticed also in a room that certain planes seemed hard to hit and then I noticed they were “jittering”, very slightly at first and then later the jittering became much more pronounced. I believe the same theory may also apply here. The slight online lag is throwing off the programs calculations as compared to what I see on the screen.

As far as the single player game I do not see this condition when playing the AI’s in the Campaigns.

I believe some of the frustration from the “Crash before a Kill” may be part of the “Lag condition”. I always hear online, and from some of the best, most accurate players something like: “I put so many bullets in that plane and I still didn’t get the Kill” The new upcoming scoring system will help alleviate most of this issue but I believe if this condition does exists it should be fixed for the good of the game.

Let me say I love this game. I want nothing more then to see it become a tremendous success.

Please when it is possible have your developers run a few tests and see if this “Lag issue” truly exists and have them correct it if possible.

Thank you for a wonderful game.

[cyclone70]

I'll add that i've been doing quite a lot of off-line training missions and seem to get easy hits leading the target, which makes me think I've got tiny lag problems at times. I'll try hosting and see if it's better, haven't done that yet...

[InfiniteStates]

There definitely are "micro-lag" (lol) problems - if/when I play arcade I find it a lot more successful to lead the lead indicator ever so slightly. Aiming directly at it yields next to no hits. It's not such a problem on other modes because I just use visual reference anyway...

[TRC Subaru]

I just did some quick calculations and just for reference, if there is lag and some how the game calculations are off by just 1 degree, you will miss the projected point by:

100 ft – miss by 1.8 ft

200 ft – miss by 3.5 ft

500 ft – miss by 8.7 ft

900 ft – miss by 15.7 ft (convergent point)

So you can see if you are only 500 ft away and off by just one degree you are probably missing the enemy’s plane completely.

Although it is possible that the game always captures the correct data and as you notice some times just “stalls” for a second, possibly processing that data, and then continues on projecting the bullets on their correct path…and possibly I just suck…lol...

Maybe some of you highly intelligent “Program People” can give us some insight on how exactly all the captured data and calculations work on an online game and if it is even possible for a miscalculation of bullet projection.

[InfiniteStates]

Yeah it's easily possible/probable. Sit down and grab a drink, cos I'm bored and it's Friday afternoon lol...


A game updates at a fairly regular, fairly high frequency (e.g. 30 or 60 frames per second). But network packets about game state (from other players) arrive at a much lower frequency. e.g.

Good ping:
Update + network packet
Update
Update
Update + network packet
Update
Update
Update + network packet
...


Bad Ping:
Update + network packet
Update
Update
Update
Update
Update
Update + network packet



To cope with this, the game will predict, based on the last known information, where each player will be for the updates between network packets. e.g. if the last packet says player A is moving north at 200mph, that is what the system will continue have him doing until a packet arrives to tell it otherwise.

This explains why people jump all over the place when a game is laggy. The game is not getting status updates frequently so is running linear predictions for too long. Then it adjusts when new status information arrives and on your screen player A jumps from where the system thought he would be to where the system has now been told he actually is.

This also explains why incredibly quick events often don't register. Ever had problems getting an online takedown on Burnout? Or knifing someone on Call of Duty or Battlefield? This is why.

The problem is also made even worse by changing from a TCP protocol for match-making and the lobby, to UDP for in-game communication. TCP is a slower protocol, but guarantees packet delivery, whereas UDP is faster but packets can and will go missing now and then.

But there's also a lot of other factors that come into it that are beyond my knowledge, and there are many different ways of going about implementing netcode and packet loss coping. There is also the difference between dedicated servers and peer-to-peer systems.

So to answer your question, I think it's less a case of miscalculating bullet projection and more a case of misrepresenting target location. If that makes sense...?

[TRC Subaru]

Thanks for the intelligent info Infinite…

So if the program simply “assumes” your projected path, and when you’re actually on someone’s “6” making minute adjustments to the plane to keep your bullets on target you believe it is possible that if a “packet” is not received the program may not be getting this information and just “making up” the projected target path, therefore not keeping your bullet path on your target as expected? I imagine there is a “time-out” situation where the game has not received enough information in a given time and just shuts down…but I wonder how badly off target the program can be theoretically before it shuts down? This could explain a lot…

[KillerWinoWilly]

Well.... i dont know what TRC's talking about... He kills me all the time!!!! LOL

[TRC Subaru]

Originally Posted by KillerWinoWilly

Well.... i dont know what TRC's talking about... He kills me all the time!!!! LOL

Only because your not lagging…well at least not until you start hitting the wine…lol...

Those were some good dogfights we have had lately Wino…lag or no lag…

[KillerWinoWilly]

Ya... Good matches, last couple days.I did notice some lag last night.I think my problem missing shots is... i just need to practice... lol.