Friday 2010-02-25 Development update:Interview by Grégory Lemasson/Discussion Thread

[Romanator21]

Originally Posted by zapatista

]for ex low on oxygen an experienced pilot notices before blacking out and does something about it...

Not true. You would not even notice that you were losing oxygen until it became far too late. I don't want to get into all the details right now, but do a quick search on hypoxia for more.

Besides the gauges for oxygen pressure and oxygen quantity, the pilot had to check his mask, and squeezed the tubing to make sure there was pressure and that no ice was forming.

[tagTaken2]

Originally Posted by 13th Hsqn Protos

There is a saying in the west that I have always found has a lot of truth "The workman is only as good as his Tools"

Actually, no-one says this- you've misunderstood the phrase about a bad worker blaming his tools.

Great update, every time I get something that exceeds my expectations dramatically.

[MikkOwl]

Originally Posted by Romanator21

Not true. You would not even notice that you were losing oxygen until it became far too late. I don't want to get into all the details right now, but do a quick search on hypoxia for more.

Besides the gauges for oxygen pressure and oxygen quantity, the pilot had to check his mask, and squeezed the tubing to make sure there was pressure and that no ice was forming.

Then the task is to come up with a system that simulates SOME of the symptoms of it, in the same similar sneaky way. Then it is up to the observant virtual pilot to notice these symptoms before it is too late.

Seems like awesome fun. In that case, the 'already too late' symptom should come as a shock. Like a sudden blackout without any chance of acting on it (as the real pilot might simply be too affected by hypoxia to notice some of the more obvious-to-others signs, so they should not be blatantly presented to the virtual pilot to make an accurate judgement either).

If judgement especially is affected, what would be appropriate? Clicking the transmit button sporadically? Accidental discharge of weapons? Or wait, get this, having a friendly plane (spitfire for example) looks like a Nazi plane. Creeping at first, seeing swastika markings, but the shape yet looks like a spitfire. But then, even the shape. Other symptoms.. Perhaps instruments showing wrong numbers (reading north as south for example).

[Romanator21]

Making symptoms will surely be a challenge. It would have to depend on altitude firstly, but to make a creeping loss of consciousness is impossible unless our computers gradually injected carbon monoxide into the room.

For the purposes of a game, and to avoid possible lawsuits, it might be ok to just gradually dampen movement of the head and stick. This will be less noticeable during cruise when the inputs are more relaxed (but imagine being bounced at this point ). At some point the screen could go black, but by then there would be nothing you could do to wake up unless your plane was diving into thicker air. Whether or not you woke up before hitting the ground would also depend on many factors, but your chances are slim.

[MikkOwl]

But I want my nazi spitfires!

Seriously, imagine (if playing without icons, which is the way it should be) your wingman suddenly engaging you, while talking on the radio that he's on the enemy's six but lost sight of you. Could happen during an engagement with real enemies. Talk about realistic simulation! And you're like "That's me you're firing at! You fool! Stop!", and he's like "No no, it's a 109". Then you go "Check your oxygen right now!".

[AndyJWest]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

But I want my nazi spitfires!

Seriously, imagine (if playing without icons, which is the way it should be) your wingman suddenly engaging you, while talking on the radio that he's on the enemy's six but lost sight of you. Could happen during an engagement with real enemies. Talk about realistic simulation! And you're like "That's me you're firing at! You fool! Stop!", and he's like "No no, it's a 109". Then you go "Check your oxygen right now!".

Oxygen deprivation isn't necessary to make this authentic. Consider the 'Battle of Barking Creek': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Barking_Creek
Sadly, inexperience combined with 'knowing' what you are looking at is quite sufficient to bring about this sort of cock-up. Almost makes me feel less guilty about doing much the same thing on UKDed2. Almost...

[MikkOwl]

That is true, and yep, I am familiar with that tragedy. But some (many) of us know to not open fire unless the enemy is positively identified. If unsure, don't shoot. But we too could get affected when oxygen deprived.

My stats say I have killed one friendly aircraft online, but since I have only shot down two enemy fighters, the friendly must have been some freak random accident. Maybe a spawn collision or hit by a stray mk 108 30mm shell. Even the rear gunner could have hit a friendly far away that was already going down by mistake when spraying. The rules of FPS games, and Armed Assault, are like a reflex to me. Don't shoot until sure.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

Many if not most systems, including all engine related, give no special clues to the pilot if in the real aircraft.

Icing: This is already described. Check the temperature gauge, look at the ice on the windows (visually) and on the wings, and note how it affects the engine performance.

When we're talking about carburetor icing the diagostic would be reduction in Manifold Pressure with a constant speed prop ( reduction in RPM with a fixed or manual pitch prop) and eventually a rough runing engine leading to total failure in extreme cases.

I know atmospheric modeling will deal with temp, but will we be able to find relative humidity in BoB?

Most of avoiding things like carburetor icing comes down to preventive actions, knowing the conditions and using good airmanship so you don't get the problem. The instruments required to diagnose the problem will be modeled, but diagnosing the problem will be the hard bit (as in real life)!

Although unlikely, I wonder if fuel injected motors like the German planes will have similar problems with induction icing?
Cheers!

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Romanator21

Not true. You would not even notice that you were losing oxygen until it became far too late.

complete bollocks !

your saying there that there is only 2 states possible for a ww2 pilot in relation to oxygen supply
a) perfectly normal and healthy
b) "far to late" (presumably instant near death state, or death itself)

which is obviously total nonsense

even holding your breath for 60 sec is possible (ie instant no further new oxygen), so even if the oxygen tube is shot out or the system has a major leak (while breathing normally), it would take btw 30 and 90 sec or (even longer) for the pilot to be completely disabled, it is NOT instant. and in a gradual reduction of oxygen in a non pressurized aircraft climbing this would take place over a number of minutes, the pilot gradually getting a bit disoriented, trouble concentrating on his tasks, be more clumsy with controls and switches (fine motor control), getting a headache etc. blurring of vision and then blacking out is really the final phase.

my point is this:
1) in both those situations in real life you would get some physical indications from your surrounding, and the physical senses of your body. a trained and experienced pilot would also recognize those earlier then joe average from the street.
2) sitting behind a monitor in your living room is a very dulled experience compared to being in the cockpit and experiencing it, are you really going to argue that point ?

so to SIMULATE the experience of the pilot it would be helpfull to get some additional clues, and this can take many forms and is really what the discussion should be about
1) simple "oxygen status" msg flash on screen ?
2) having the oxygen dial "light up brighter" so that with an initial glance at your instruments you get increased awareness of the important one
3) etc ... etc... many ways to do it

take another example, wasnt the fuel tank right in front of the pilot in some of those aircraft ? damage to the tank could leak fuel into the cockpit, the pilot feels it on his face, sees the liquid maybe, it stings his eyes, he smells the fuel etc... and no not all those events meant that the pilot was instantly on fire either, so it is not about modeling the flames as an on/off status.
- so how do you "model" the pilot smelling the fuel in the cockpit ? if there was lots of fuel splashing about in the cockpit onto the pilot, a strong smell of fuel, and the pilot was in a dodgy dogfight situation, he might well decide to bail out rather then wait for the next spark to set him on fire. even if he stayed in the pit and flew on, he would make sure his goggles were on and he was ready to quickly bail out

again, some kind of visual msg or other feedback is needed to get that sensory information and SIMULATE the information the real pilot would have at that time, sitting behind your monitor just doesnt provide it.

[13th Hsqn Protos]

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox

1. Should I show it by my finger?
2. Trust Me.
3. Blue ray. No.

1.
2. Been doing that for almost a decade.
3. I am sure he will ship it with next load. Say hi, hes not talking to me cause I give you a hard time

When you coming to (demo) USA ?