Modelling the effects of gun-recoil

[Thunderbolt56]

I've been doing a good bit of reading lately (always do right after Christmas as my family finally listens and gets me some of the selected reading material on my "list") and in reading 2 of Eric Hammel's books Aces Against Germany and Aces Against Japan, I've realized that recoil from firing all your guns at once was a real concern for many (especially in low-speed combat on the deck) because the recoil was so pronounced that it could actually contribute to a severe stall.

One pilot of a P-51 stated that firing all 6 guns was the equivalent of reducing horsepower by 400!

This brings me to a somewhat rhetorical question with 2 parts;

A. To what extent is this phenomenon modelled in IL2?

and

B. How well do you think it will be modelled in newer-gen sims like SoW and RoF?


I realize any answers to these questions will be speculative as the ones equipped to answer them accurately likely won't/can't respond. Nonetheless, I'm interested to find out.

TB

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by Thunderbolt56

A. To what extent is this phenomenon modelled in IL2?

Somewhat, maybe not that much, but I remember firing in a I16/24 with one of the SHVAK disabled by enemy fire, and it did tend to turn you toward the firing gun, which made achieving hits much more difficult. That was a while ago, maybe in the original FB, I couldn't swear it still happens now, but it could be that it does, I don't remember having a wing cannon disabled recently.

B. How well do you think it will be modelled in newer-gen sims like SoW and RoF?

That is entirely up to the developer. All other things being equal, which they never are, I'd prefer it was, but I don't know what I'd be prepared to give up in order to have it.

[robtek]

Recoil is modelled in il2, a standing 110 rolls backward when you fire the guns.

[choctaw111]

Gun recoil is modeled in Il2. As already stated, if you loose one wing cannon, your aircraft will slip to that side when firing.
Another and even better test is to land your plane, shut down the engine, and fire your guns. You will start to roll backwards. Of course this is more pronounced on the larger guns.
I would think that any and all effects present in Il2 (and many new ones) will be improved and implemented in SoW.

Edit...Sorry robtek. I see you already mentioned this.

[Thunderbolt56]

I realize it's modelled in IL2, but is it even close to the equivalent of reducing the effective horsepower on a P-51 by 25%? My experiences are that it's more of a shooting issue than an actual FM issue, even at low altitudes in a stall fight. I've lost a cannon or even a bank of guns on one side and had the resultant yaw skew my marksmanship enough to realize there is something there but firing my guns (even a pair of MK108's) in a low scissor doesn't seem to affect my forward momentum or contribute to one of my wings dropping off from lack of lift.

[BadAim]

As pure speculation, I doubt that the actual recoil of even 6 .50 cals is that great. I'm sure it is significant but compared to the inertia of a several thousand pound aircraft, I'd estimate the effects to be on the more conservative side. IMHO I'd say IL2 has got it pretty close.

That said I would be interested in some more scientific calculations. I'm definitely not the man for that job.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by Thunderbolt56

I realize it's modelled in IL2, but is it even close to the equivalent of reducing the effective horsepower on a P-51 by 25%? My experiences are that it's more of a shooting issue than an actual FM issue, even at low altitudes in a stall fight. I've lost a cannon or even a bank of guns on one side and had the resultant yaw skew my marksmanship enough to realize there is something there but firing my guns (even a pair of MK108's) in a low scissor doesn't seem to affect my forward momentum or contribute to one of my wings dropping off from lack of lift.

I read a P51 pilot's account where he states you could no fire at low speed since the recoil could make you stall. Probably it's the same pilot that you describe here.

Now, think to all the vertical fights that we do where the lower plan points if nose up ad fires even if a 150Km/h.

The recoil is modelled, but so much...