Another Question - 109 Max ceiling ingame?

[gpang788]

Sorry guys, another question.

According to the game manual,

the 109 has a top ceiling of + - 10,000m

Ingame, the highest I could take it up to is 7,000 ++ m @ 12 prop pitch flying the E-1. The E-4, with auto prop pitch is even worse, clocking a max ceiling of only 5,000 m ++

Is this a bug or is there something I am doing wrong here?

[Blackdog_kt]

There are two problems here. First, the FMs need revision as almost no single aircraft in the sim can attain its historical performance values. According to the latest Friday update the developers are working on the FM, so a future patch will probably correct that.

Second, there is an operational error involved: you are flying at full fine pitch.

The best thing you can do is trim the aircraft to fly at about 250 kph (i think that's the best climb speed in the 109) and then add power to make it climb (the nose will rise to maintain 250kph and you will climb).

The higher you go, the lower the outside air pressure is and that means lower pressures inside the engine intake manifold as well: your Ata gauge will drop as you climb.

This means that you can add some throttle to bring it back up (i like to climb at about 1.2 Ata and loiter at 1.0 Ata to save fuel) and after a certain altitude not even full throttle will give you the full Ata you can get at ground level.

Now for the prop. Assuming you are cruise climbing like described, it's not efficient to climb at full fine pitch. 12:00 pitch is like 1st gear in a car: it pulls the car uphill with ease but it doesn't let you attain a high speed.

Similarly, full fine pitch is good for low speeds and high angles of climb (eg, at the top of a zoom climb in combat), or when you want to keep your speed under control and the engine responsive (eg, during approach and landing).

In fact, the higher you go you need to coarsen the pitch, because the outside air is thin and the propeller doesn't "bite" well at fine settings: it just turns really fast but doesn't generate much thrust.

Depending on how steeply i climb, i usually set the pitch between 10:10 and 11:00, coarsening a bit as i go to higher altitudes. Of course, if you coarsen it too much there is again a problem, because the propeller has more resistance and after a point the engine can't turn it efficiently.

It's a balancing act, you just need to play around with it and get a feel for it.

[gpang788]

What about planes like the 109 E-4? There isn't even a manual pp to play with?

[CaptainDoggles]

I have no idea what the ceiling is for the E-4 but it's much much higher than 5000 metres.

I've had the E-4 up to at least 8000.

Perhaps you are climbing too steeply.

[gpang788]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I have no idea what the ceiling is for the E-4 but it's much much higher than 5000 metres.

I've had the E-4 up to at least 8000.

Perhaps you are climbing too steeply.

What speed and angle do you climb at?

[VO101_Tom]

I can climb to 7400-7600 m, full throttle, manual PP around 2300 engine rpm. Climb speed around 200, with slow (i mean very slow) climb rate. If you pull the stick, the wing angle of attack exceed the critical value, and it WILL descend, even if the nose is pointing upwards.
The ingame ceiling is 8000m (if the altmeter set to zero properly , the Spit IIa stopped climbing in this alt.

There is a promise by the devs, that this will improve.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

There are two problems here. First, the FMs need revision as almost no single aircraft in the sim can attain its historical performance values. According to the latest Friday update the developers are working on the FM, so a future patch will probably correct that.

Second, there is an operational error involved: you are flying at full fine pitch.

The best thing you can do is trim the aircraft to fly at about 250 kph (i think that's the best climb speed in the 109) and then add power to make it climb (the nose will rise to maintain 250kph and you will climb).

The higher you go, the lower the outside air pressure is and that means lower pressures inside the engine intake manifold as well: your Ata gauge will drop as you climb.

This means that you can add some throttle to bring it back up (i like to climb at about 1.2 Ata and loiter at 1.0 Ata to save fuel) and after a certain altitude not even full throttle will give you the full Ata you can get at ground level.

Now for the prop. Assuming you are cruise climbing like described, it's not efficient to climb at full fine pitch. 12:00 pitch is like 1st gear in a car: it pulls the car uphill with ease but it doesn't let you attain a high speed.

Similarly, full fine pitch is good for low speeds and high angles of climb (eg, at the top of a zoom climb in combat), or when you want to keep your speed under control and the engine responsive (eg, during approach and landing).

In fact, the higher you go you need to coarsen the pitch, because the outside air is thin and the propeller doesn't "bite" well at fine settings: it just turns really fast but doesn't generate much thrust.

Depending on how steeply i climb, i usually set the pitch between 10:10 and 11:00, coarsening a bit as i go to higher altitudes. Of course, if you coarsen it too much there is again a problem, because the propeller has more resistance and after a point the engine can't turn it efficiently.

It's a balancing act, you just need to play around with it and get a feel for it.

E-3...I was studying how the game handles pitch, by flying under the simple difficulties setting and watching the gauges. If it is modeled correctly, the pilot was very busy in rl. I don't want to pick up bad habits by watching, and then executing similar to the animation...do you know if the animation has been contested by our many experts here?

[Blackdog_kt]

To be honest i have never tried simplified CEM in CoD, so i don't know how it works.

In general through yes, you are busy when flying with manual pitch. If i do it often i get to a point where i can tune it well enough by the sound and only look to the gauges once in a while (this means i can look outside the cockpit for enemies, instead of bury my head in the panel).

Then real life happens, i don't fly for a week or two and i can see the plane performs worse because i'm not doing things as i should. However, once you understand how it works the first time around, it only takes 30 minutes to an hour of flying time to remember it again.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

To be honest i have never tried simplified CEM in CoD, so i don't know how it works.

In general through yes, you are busy when flying with manual pitch. If i do it often i get to a point where i can tune it well enough by the sound and only look to the gauges once in a while (this means i can look outside the cockpit for enemies, instead of bury my head in the panel).

Then real life happens, i don't fly for a week or two and i can see the plane performs worse because i'm not doing things as i should. However, once you understand how it works the first time around, it only takes 30 minutes to an hour of flying time to remember it again.

Constant work load of AI pilot, can we learn from him

I may not have worded my post well, I'll try it again...My point was if AI is the perfect pilot, then by studying his use of the pitch control lever at a certain throttle position/RPM, at a certain airspeed, during a certain maneuver we can then learn through our observations of him what is the optimun settings of pitch, for the various situations we find ourselves in...in those difficulty settings, you can watch the AI's use of the pitch control lever/and clock(seeing when it is moved, why, and to what setting on the clock, how often he makes change's) for an example, you pulling the stick to climb you will notice his perfect control of the ata, its value needle never straying far, and take notice how the airspeed respond's to the use of the correct setting's of the clock, all the while the throttle position being unchanged by you the pilot...try it!...next I will observe his use of the radiator slats

[TomcatViP]

The AI use a simplified FM. The engine parameters might then be different.