Anyone else noticed this controller bug?

[MikkOwl]

EDIT: Others have confirmed it. A video showing the bug in action can be seen on page 3.

I've suffered from this (and a couple of others I met) since I first got IL-2 1946 in November. It's very annoying to say the least. Could any of you also check if you have this same (rather serious as far as flightsims go) bug? I already reported it to the 4.09m bug topic stickied above, and here's a repost. Please check if you find the same behaviour.


DESCRIPTION / SYMPTOMS

When using IL-2's native courves or deadband functions for joysticks, IL-2 in-game joystick will move away from true center if physical joystick is centered.

VERSIONS AFFECTED

Observed since at least version 4.08m. Mods or not does not alter outcome.

HARDWARE

WinXP-32 Home Edition (latest service pack). ASUS P5-B Deluxe with up to date drivers. Tested with older and newer drivers, including for USB. Tested with different USB ports and USB drivers, hubs vs no hubs.

TESTED WITH:
Logitech Extreme 3D PRO
Logitech G940
Logitech G25 Racing Wheel (!)
Saitek Quadrant
All devices tested with different versions of their corresponding drivers.

Was present from beginning, no mods. Have reinstalled completely fresh to make sure. Have deleted all config files for user and conf.ini for testing purposes.

TO REPRODUCE

1. Start IL-2.
2. Go to Hardware > Input
3. Change the first three or so sensitivity sliders to zero for pitch and roll (it can be seen with even the default settings, but first try this).
4. Move joystick around and observe the red input and green output squares in the monitor on the same screen. Move around some ways from center, and then center repeatedly, slowly and quickly, especially near and at center.

The red is where the user's joystick is, the green is how it is moved in IL-2 after being adjusted/filtered by IL-2. When moving it around the center, the green square is centered (since deadband means there should be no reaction at all in IL-2). But when centering the red square (actual joystick), the green moves approximately one pixel up and to the left away from center. Moving away from center, makes the IL-2 adjusted/filtered green square move INTO center again (where it should have been all along).

You may enter a cockpit on the ground and zoom in on the stick in the cockpit, and repeat the same movements. With a big deadband, the stick should not move at all when moving the stick around, only remained static in center. But it moves slightly (very little) to the left, and forward, when joystick is centered. Behaviour also visibly seen with rudder pedals and levers (if they use courves or deadband).

If using a normal no deadband & sensitivity courve (going from 5, 10, 15, 25 etc) you can observe this: moving away from center slowly, makes the IL-2 adjusted/filtered green square move INTO center first, until a certain point is reached (not far), at which it starts behaving completely correctly. Bug is only when near or at center.

NOTES

• Affects every type of controller from various manufacturers.
• Affects every axis that is bindable in IL-2 (trims, flaps, rudders).
• Device calibration is irellevant. It applies even to axes and IL-2 things that have no center (throttle etc). If the red input square is centered, the adjusted green will move offset from center.
• The offset is always to the left, or if the axis is vertical (like pitch) it is upwards.
• The offset is seen only when any kind of deadband or less than 100 sensitivity is set at the center (i.e. the leftmost sensitivity slider in the hardware > Input screen). It does not affect the axes already set uniformly by default to be flat (like flaps, trims, prop pitch, throttles) but they too will display it if deadband or sensitivity is tweaked.
• The offset bug is not visible in the third party IL-2 joy utility, but by using that utility, lowering sensitivity or having deadband near the center of any axis bound to anything (like flaps) can show that in game, the bug really does affect every single axis.
• The only way to not experience this self-moving offset is to set the sensitivity to 100, deadband to 0 and use external programs to try to tweak in a joystick/device courve, such as dxtweak2 or the Logitech Profiler.

[brando]

Interesting. I must say that I've never noticed this one, probably because I've never found a reason to use deadzone on any of my controller axes. I DO set curves for all my axes that are controlled by potentiometers - pitch, yaw, roll, throttle, trim up/down, trim left/right - using the IL2Joy utility; but,as stated, no deadzone, and no filtering.

I seem to recall, from years ago, that it was explained that these latter functions were intended for older devices that jittered around their centrepoints. It may be that you have no need of these filters in the first place. Also, it all seems to be rather a 'static' interpretation of input. When I'm flying a plane I find myself constantly trimming anyway, either with the stick and pedals or the trim wheels - so it doesn't much matter whether the centres are creeping or not, so long as the instruments are centred in the cockpit.

I can see this might cause problems when using the Autopilot function offline, or Level Stabiliser flying a bomber, but it's still adjustable in the latter case using trim. I suggest that leaving deadzones and filters alone might help

brando

[AndyJWest]

Just a thought, does this show up on DeviceLink? It could just be a graphical glitch that has no effect on the 'real' control inputs.

[MikkOwl]

Originally Posted by brando

I've never noticed this one, probably because I've never found a reason to use deadzone on any of my controller axes. I DO set curves for all my axes

Filtering makes no difference, but deadband or sensitivity (courved response done through IL-2) does. Check it out if you haven't.

When I'm flying a plane I find myself constantly trimming anyway, either with the stick and pedals or the trim wheels - so it doesn't much matter whether the centres are creeping or not, so long as the instruments are centred in the cockpit.

This is fine for off-stick flying, but it it becomes an issue if the controls move on their own when you are moving across the center (imagine when gunning, even if the effect is not large enough for most to realize).

Originally Posted by Aviar

Sorry, but I don't seem to have this 'problem'. I followed your instructions to reproduce your issue. I set the deadband to 50 on all three axis.

The red and green boxes always recenter perfectly and never deviate from the center position.

Good that you tried it out. The amount of offset for the green square I am talking about is very small - one pixel up and one pixel to the left. Did you try it in-cockpit? Because there it is easy to notice (when zooming in with the FOV, static view on the ground) if the control stick moves in the slightest when repeating the same test. Easier to see than a green square that moves miminally. The stick should of course not move not even the slightest if things work as they should.

I also use the CH Control Manager software to tweak my HOTAS settings. So, if this is the kind of 'external programs' you mentioned, it may be the reason I don't have the centering issue you described

I meant the only way to have courves or deadzone (not that I use deadzone, but I do like courves) is to use external programs, if one wants to avoid this control centering bug. In my case at least.

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Just a thought, does this show up on DeviceLink? It could just be a graphical glitch that has no effect on the 'real' control inputs.

Devicelink input cannot use IL-2's native courves/deadband so the bug cannot affect it.

It is not a graphical glitch - in fact, I noticed it when flying in an IL-2 on a longer flight (with time acceleration at times) and I noticed that it was a bitch to get the stick just 100% right, and then when testing a little I noticed that it outright turned the ailerons in the opposite direction I wanted to turn to (I had stick centered, wanted to apply a bit left-aileron to compensate for a right rolling tendency and straight up the plane and keep it there. But when moving stick very slightly to the left, the plane started rolling more to the right at first, until I moved a little bit more, where it eventually started to move in the 'correct' direction. This is due to the bug described - my stick was centered, but the courved etc IL-2 input was offset to the left a little. When I moved to to the left, the bug would stop acting (and the input would go into the real center); causing the opposite control response.

It is noticable both graphically on the control stick in game (under the reproduction steps I mentioned) and in the hardware > input screen. And it affects all controls that can be bound under "HOTAS" (not that anyone uses courves on throttle, prop and flaps but it does, I checked, set the courves through IL-2 Joy).

Just be aware it is slight, so slight I have no trouble believing 99% of users just haven't really noticed it. But definitely it will show, if the bug exists on one's system, using the reproduction steps.

[KG26_Alpha]

Anyone else noticed this controller bug?

No

[MikkOwl]

I have torn out and deleted anything pertaining to my IL-2 installs (main one was the steam version but had an older in my program folder as well). Went through registry with a comb to delete any mention of IL-2. Uninstalled the Logitech Profiler drivers and deleted all references to them in the registry. Uninstalled and deleted all mention of the Saitek Quadrant drivers/software. Rebooted several times. Downloaded Il-2 again from Steam, fresh. Launched (4.08m), testing it out - no change. Same bug.

However, with the joystick now having no curves set by outside programs, it was harder to get it completely centered (in order to observe the bug, especially in the cockpit). I had to look for it for a while, esp when starting airborne and camera moving around a bit, before I could certify it was still there. And it is. Sucks...

The stick is seen moving slightly as I described, when the joystick is completely centered. And it does indeed affect the aircraft flight, could be seen from outside and inside, especially when under time acceleration.

Originally Posted by Aviar

I guess when you say 'courves', you mean 'curves' (the 10 sliders on each axis). Anyway, 'curves' is the correct English spelling, if that's what you mean.

That's the spelling I was looking for, thanks for pointing it out. I kept feeling disturbed by it lately as "is this really as it should be? Feels wrong". Need to get my Firefox spelling checker plugin working again.

..I still cannot reproduce this 'bug'. Not only did I set the deadzone for all 3 axis to 50, I also set ALL the sliders (curves) to values UNDER 100%. [..] the green and red boxes stay perfectly centered.

Hmm, that is crappy for me and good for you. Did you closely observe the stick with maximum zoom on the ground to see if it moved in the slightest when joystick goes from dead center to near center etc?

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

No

Did you try it in the hardware setup screen AND in-game cockpit as mentioned in the reply to Aviar?