Donbass winter map problem

[stugumby]

Was just working on a Rostov 1941 winter mission and found out the water is frozen all over the map, ships would move but no wave motion but aircraft like MBR and any other float planes wont take off etc.My map date is set to 22 oct 1941.

[JacksonsGhost]

Originally Posted by stugumby

Was just working on a Rostov 1941 winter mission and found out the water is frozen all over the map, ships would move but no wave motion but aircraft like MBR and any other float planes wont take off etc.My map date is set to 22 oct 1941.

Hi stug,

I don't build on winter maps much, but isn't water usually frozen on them, regardless of date (at least shallow water)? Wiki says the Azov Sea is relatively shallow and usually freezes 2-5 months of the year. The Russian Winter of 1941 was notoriously brutal anyway, so it seems reasonable that all water on this map would have been frozen, as it is in the game.

Ice won't stop ships from moving in the game. They will even move over regular land if you plot them that way in the .mis file. But it does make a mess of seaplane takeoffs, as it should!

Is it actually your aim to represent an action on 22 Oct 1941? If so, why not use the Autumn map, since October is in the Northern Autumn? I guess you may want the Winter look, but it seems on this map that means frozen water. Maybe a job for the amphib MBR-2!

[stugumby]

No some of them have winter water, this one is froze over. Trying to do Rostov in nov-dec 1941. No water puts any anti shipping out of the loop for more missions.

[JacksonsGhost]

I can't speak for the map builders, but I suspect the key here is that the waters in this map area are generally shallow, and would be frozen for most of the winter, and they've left it at that.

I agree it would certainly be nice to be able to choose unfrozen water for scenarios where snow has fallen but the water has not yet frozen, but I don't believe you have that option here.

I think as a mission builder your best option is to research when the Azov Sea froze in 1941 (some time in November I suspect). Then any mission before that use the Autumn map.

[dimlee]

Maximum ice coverage in the Sea of Azov: February.
First ice in December, in some exceptionally cold winters (once in 5-10 years in the XX century) in November.

Historical monthly average temperatures in Taganrog(one of the coldest places in winter in the Northern Azov):
http://www.pogodaiklimat.ru/history/34720.htm
This is from Soviet archives so no data during German occupation.

German data from that area and period are there:
Julius Büdel. Das Eis im Kaspisee // Annalen der Hydrographie und Maritimen Meteorologie 1943

Maps of the ice coverage can be found in this article:
https://ice-snow.igras.ru/jour/article/view/488/280

The 1941/1942 winter was not very cold in the Azov region.

[JacksonsGhost]

Thanks for the local knowledge Dimlee

I don't have time to do a proper study on this, but I just did a quick Google keyword search for "frozen"+"Rostov"+"November"+"1941" and came up with the following links.

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/ar...ve-to-the-don/

https://codenames.info/operation/don...ive-operation/

The first link says that they (the Germans) were battling Mud on November 11, and then "A few days later a cold wave arrived and froze everything". This probably doesn't include the Sea of Azov, but a later comment on November 22 speaks of the "now frozen (River) Don".

The second link backs this up with a November 20 reference to fighting on the Don, speaking of "heaps of bodies lying on the frozen river".

So it seems the River Don froze in mid November 1941. I can't see any direct comment on the Sea of Azov, so I can't add anything there.